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Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

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Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#301

Post by LunaSea »

chiaro wrote: post #267
leeleelee wrote: post #134

Nursing is a field dominated by women. And there are very large salary gaps between nurses with 0-10 years of experience and nurses with 10-20 years of experience. I'd also bet that there are much more women with 10-20 years of experience than men. So if you broke it down in the same way as the tech industry and did not control for job title or years of experience, you'd find a reverse gender gap in the same way you…

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/24/stubborn-pay-gap-is... Nope. Male nurses still make more, which, with respect to your post, is a strong data point in favor of the discrimination hypothesis.

A discrimination by women against women then since nursing is overwhelmingly women.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#302

Post by DanBC »

13thLetter wrote: post #235
DanBC wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>why the laser-like focus on tech This is a tech site. It's going to focus on tech wages. Other sites are focussing on the gap in motor repair or restaurant chefs or whatever.

It's not just tech sites, though, which is what I'm getting at. Major politicians and newspapers constantly go on at great lengths about alleged gender problems in tech. Do they talk nearly as much about, say, the imbalance towards women in education? I'm going to assert that they do not.

[gender imbalance education] and the name of various newspapers returns many many hits.

EG https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gender+imbalance+education...

Although using WSJ proves you right: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gender+imbalance+education...

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#303

Post by jacquesm »

rayiner wrote: post #250
losteric wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree with everything here, especially getting rid of stereotypes around nurturing roles. My question is, what happens if many women and men aren't funneled towards those roles? What if it's a natural preference given our evolutionary history? I'm not saying that's the case, and my parents had no problems reversing nurturing roles over 20 years ago... but given our hyper-"PC" society, I am curious how far soc…

That argument ignores cultural evolution, which humans have long used to adapt to changing circumstances much more quickly than biological evolution. Just as we evolved culturally to accommodate the transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture, we will do the same to accommodate our modern post-physical labor society. And I don't think we live in a "hyper-PC" society in this regard at all. Let's put it this w…

> People would be more surprised to find out that a woman's husband quit his job to stay home with the kids than to find out that her husband is a different race.

The validity of that statement is highly location dependent.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#304

Post by Vraxx »

WalterSear wrote: post #264
Vraxx wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point he was trying to make still holds without such absurd multipliers as "doubling", it's just an intuitively easy to grasp multiplier. What he's saying is that increasing your number of hours may get more absolute work done, but proportionally a person accomplishes less as more hours are worked. Thus, the correlation between time in office (hours) and productivity (work accomplished per unit time) is a…

You are implying that childcare and other non-work flex time activity isn't work. This is, in the frame of this discussion, in itself implicitly sexist. Women aren't asking for flex time in order to relax: they want flex time in order to do work that isn't business related, like taking care of their family. So the same number of hours are being worked - the question is whether using these extra hours to do company bu…

Woah woah woah, slow down. You are infering that childcare and other non-work flex time activity isn't work. I was not saying anything at all about time spent outside the job. I was trying to clarify the argument that you were responding to by demonstrating how it is not a straw man.

To follow the argument from it's origins, you led with

>I'd be amazed if there wasn't a correlation between time in the office and productivity.

And you were later responding to SamBam saying

>Regularly doubling your hours in the office generally does not even remotely double a person's productivity.

Which I was clarifying was not exactly a straw man because the fact that he chose "double" the hours was merely a hyperbole to demonstrate that productivity (in the office) does not scale positively with time spent (in the office).

So we are talking about correlation between time in the office and productivity (in the office). The negative correlation that was spoken of is a very measured effect, multiple studies and articles can be found [0] using the same tool that you so kindly used to define benevolent sexism to me with.

[0]:https://hbr.org/2015/08/the-research-is-clear-long-hours-bac...

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#305

Post by [deleted] »

dalke wrote: post #247
Dr_tldr wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Why is "trend" relevant? Your clarified statement is that modern wage disparity is not due to discrimination. That means that even a handful of counter-examples would suffice to show that that statement is incorrect." That does not logically follow. If you're offering an explanation for a large dataset which is depicting a trend, the value of that explanation is not undermined by a handful of statistical outliers.…

I disagreed with the statement 'Wage disparity is caused by gender roles, not by discrimination'. It's clear from history, as my example of Lilly Ledbetter, that Wage disparity is also caused by discrimination. I don't see the need for "counter-examples and the counter-explanation" when documents like http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/4-28-11a.cfm ("Gender-Based Wage Gap Persists, Experts Agree at EEOC Forum"…

[deleted]

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#306

Post by baddox »

rosser wrote: post #143
nsxwolf wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly it would lead to discrimination against large families (large these days being anything more than 2 kids). Employers likely won't tolerate someone having 5 kids over a 5-10 year period and taking all that disruptive and expensive leave.

Because people should totally be making major life decisions on the basis of what employers will "tolerate". FFS. We've already ceded enough control over our lives to these companies whose only agenda is to suck people dry, and then find new ways to wring even more out of them. Businesses exist to serve people's needs and interests. People do not exist to serve businesses.

> Because people should totally be making major life decisions on the basis of what employers will "tolerate".

Shouldn't they? The career you choose, and the specific firm you choose to work for (or start your own, or whatever) is what I would consider a major life decision which ought to carefully be considered alongside other major life decisions like whether or when to have children.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#307

Post by shkkmo »

nickff wrote: post #268
taneq wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well put. Likewise, you can reframe the difference as 'women are paid less overall than men' or as 'men get less leisure time and less time with their families overall'. It would be interesting to see a campaign for shorter hours for men without changing pay.

I understand that people want a different work-life balance, but I do not understand why they expect higher compensation per unit of output while working less. Increasing the number of workers a company will need to achieve the same product will add overhead and a great deal of ancillary costs; if your goal is to get people to spend less time at work, you should be willing to accept a pay cut (at least proportional t…

People who work less and have a better work-life balance can get more done in less time.

Companies with poor work-life balances often have a culture of 'long-hours' that pushes people towards spending (or acting like they are spending) more hours working that are necessary to complete their tasks.

I haven't seen anyone pushing for 'higher compensation per unit of output', but many employees would like their employers to focus on improving 'output per worker hour' in addition to 'output per worker'.

To be clear, if we want this we have really only have one option: Increase demand (for jobs or products from) companies that do this well. Good work-life balance is a non-salary perk like many others that companies offer.

You can't legislate this focus on the part of employers, all you can do is incentive it.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#308

Post by baddox »

DominikR wrote: post #182
RodericDay wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the idea of "mandatory paternity leave", to make up for the biological asymmetry. Even if you have a stereotypical breadwinner/housewife relationship, you are legally mandated to take time off, even if you don't want to. That way you avoid the "you're allowed to take paternal leave, but real go-getters don't!" game altogether. edit: The way I see it, the responses just prove my point. "This would just make peo…

How about letting people make their own choice on how they want to spend their life? Who are YOU to believe you can make that decision for me and everyone else?

I agree. I also agree with your comment if you replace "life" with "money."

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#309

Post by marssaxman »

LunaSea wrote: post #293
marssaxman wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to do contract work or start a business (again). That would make the problem worse, not better, because I'd have to spend more of my time on my job in order to make a living, and the additional time would be spent on tasks I enjoy less and am not as good at as the work I do which is the focus of my career. The point is that I have a wide variety of interests and to me a good life is one where I get to pu…

Isn't what you are asking for just simply a part-time job?

It could be, if "part-time job" simply meant an ordinary job which one works for fewer than ~2000 hours per year; but "part-time" also means "no benefits", "no stability", and "no respect", and in any case there are no part-time jobs to be had as a software developer. If there were, I don't imagine they'd be much good for making a living.

What I want is more about flexibility than about a smaller number of hours. I'm happy to work 50+ hours in a week when it's called for; I just wish I could take a month off to go travel, when that's what I want to do, or take Thursdays and Fridays off for two months because there's some project I want to work on, or take a week full of half days because we just shipped a release and I feel like goofing off a bit. I mean, sure, I could probably just do the last one, unofficially, but I'd like it if this were all above board and OK, instead of just something you try to get away with and hope nobody complains. And there's just no solving the problem of wanting to travel: only once in my career have I gotten a month off, after almost seven years at a single company, a tenure I will probably never repeat. Why is PTO always non-negotiable? I don't get it.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#310

Post by RUG3Y »

FD3SA wrote: post #138
tomp wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just society, it's also biology. Even if "parenting" roles were completely equal, "childbirth" role would fall only on women, so they would still take more time off for children (and hence get lower pay).

Indeed, the crusade against biology is one I watch with great amusement. Don Quixote would be proud of those who hoist their flags in battle against evolution, biology and the laws of the universe itself. Keep up the good fight, dear gender abolitionists, for you truly are against a formidable foe.

Your perspective is quite similar to mine. The hubris of our current society is baffling sometimes.
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