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Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

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Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#131

Post by autotune »

Kinnard wrote: post #82
aikah wrote: post #80

And are you willing to pay your "software engineers" what they are worth? because that's often the issue at end. Plenty of good "engineers". Not that many startup willing to pay them fairly. You want the best people but you don't want to pay them the "best" money? you get what you pay for.

I think a lot of engineers are motivated by other things. By contrast I think a lot of "bootcampers" are looking for a salary pop.

I would salary is a huge motivator for any engineer looking to support their lifestyle, then job responsibilities and ongoing career growth are the most important, followed team dynamic IMHO. The only difference maybe with the bootcampers is maybe not being as concerned with ongoing career growth or keeping up with new trends in tech to keep their skills updated.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#132

Post by nickpsecurity »

xorblurb wrote: post #105
nickpsecurity wrote: post #28

High-assurance software and security field have been doing real engineering for decades. Here's a nice presentation with a tie-in to another high-assurance discipline: http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~hook/cs491sp08/AssuranceSp08.ppt Here's an old method, Cleanroom, that was cost-effective for business with low, defect rate even on first use: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=E10... . Altran[-Praxis] i…

About Cleanroom, the prohibition on unit testing is insane; CPU and compiler bug exists, so do subtleties in languages, and even good quality models in formalized forms have some defects that probably prevent to get a mathematical proof of correctness even if the CPU/Compiler would be defect free (ex: C++11 memory model - and I think the formal Java memory model also has some issues). They should do as if they are fo…

Oh I agree with you entirely. Not running code and no unit testing were critiques I had with it. I used it as an example of engineering software. Cleanroom certainly isnt the last word in that.

Personally, as it's function-oriented, I'd combine it with a subset of Haskell that was easy to translate into imperative code. Build the app with Haskell, use QuickCheck/QuickSpec, test every execution path, covert channels via Flow Caml-like setup, and certified compilation to target with pre-verified runtime. Now, we can use that directly or use it as an executable spec for an imperative implementation.

So, that's how I see applying Cleanroom today for most benefit. Maybe drop the statistical stuff, too.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#133

Post by auxym »

msbarnett wrote: post #126
lgunsch wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious why it irks you. There is actually software engineers. At the U of A, where I went, Software Engineering is separate than Computing Science. Software Engineering was run by the Engineering department, and they had the same rigours as the rest of engineering has. However, Computing Science was run by the Science department.

Note that, even though you can get a Software Engineering degree from the U of A, your likelihood of ever qualifying for your PEng is next to nil. In 99.99% of software jobs in the Canadian or US job markets you're simply never going to be able to accumulate enough eligible hours in your 6 year EIT eligibility period, because of the way APEGA defines things. Software jobs where you're supervised by a P.Eng., as requi…

In Quebec, programming is not considered an engineer-reserved task and therefore experience cannot be used towards getting the PE. In practice, it means that even thoug there is such a thing as software engineering degrees (most universities offer it), no graduate ever becomes an engineer.

My opinion (as a jr mechanical engineer) is that the whole law is a bit outdated and seems to be geared 100% to civil engineers who actually need to stamp drawings.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#134

Post by nickpsecurity »

mattlutze wrote: post #25

I don't understand why he's drawing this line in the sand. Engineering is applying scientific principles to solve a problem. Development is the process of improving something. I don't see why they should be at odds; the concepts seem orthogonal. Instead of insulting rigorous, creative professionals who prefer the name "developer" over "engineer", maybe he could have said that he wants to hire people that won't go CYA…

There you have it: developers rarely apply scientific principles to development. The native people would've switched to Ada or Modula-3 long ago if they did. Cleanroom and formal code reviews would've had more takeup after empirical studies showed they worked. Models for safe concurrency from Hansen, Ada, Eiffel, etc would've been widely deployed. Frameworks for web app issues like from OWASP would've eliminated those issues. And so on.

Instead, both hobbyist and professional developers seem to systematically ignore every proven thing in their field outside of libraries, apps, or practices that are mainstreamed. It's driven by fads and a throw it together mindset rather than science and robust composition mindset.

Meanwhile, groups like Altran Praxis with their Correct by Construction approach continue to show benefits of engineering software.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#135

Post by Glyptodon »

strickjb9 wrote: post #109
Glyptodon wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always felt that in the various jobs I've held the degree to which I could "get under the hood" was determined by people higher up the chain of command than me. Run into a complex bug in library X? Well, we don't want you spending a week to debug it, write a patch and try to upstream it. Work around it for now instead. Or we'll defer that feature since we don't want you to spend that much time on "non-company" p…

I can relate to your last paragraph. I used to (and still) source dive to find good workarounds to library issues. But I never asked for permission, I just did it. I also delivered on time. Nowadays, I'm a team lead and I am guilty of telling people "not to go there" (about half the time). It's funny because it actually conflicts with my opinion that I want people to dig in! The choice to "dig in" is a personal risk/…

I don't disagree with you, but I also think there are situations where (particularly if you aren't privy to the big picture) it's a good idea to have some kind of sounding board to run things off of before diving/jumping in, though that may be a bit tangential to the point at hand.

Maybe more to the point, I don't think my behavior at the time was an attempt at pushing the risk up the chain as much as it was a manifestation of fear/anxiety that I'd somehow be outside of company expectations/norms or would end up spending a bunch of time working around/fixing something that had already been solved in a way that I, as a newer employee, just didn't know about.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#137

Post by msbarnett »

auxym wrote: post #133
msbarnett wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that, even though you can get a Software Engineering degree from the U of A, your likelihood of ever qualifying for your PEng is next to nil. In 99.99% of software jobs in the Canadian or US job markets you're simply never going to be able to accumulate enough eligible hours in your 6 year EIT eligibility period, because of the way APEGA defines things. Software jobs where you're supervised by a P.Eng., as requi…

In Quebec, programming is not considered an engineer-reserved task and therefore experience cannot be used towards getting the PE. In practice, it means that even thoug there is such a thing as software engineering degrees (most universities offer it), no graduate ever becomes an engineer. My opinion (as a jr mechanical engineer) is that the whole law is a bit outdated and seems to be geared 100% to civil engineers w…

> In Quebec, programming is not considered an engineer-reserved task and therefore experience cannot be used towards getting the PE. In practice, it means that even thoug there is such a thing as software engineering degrees (most universities offer it), no graduate ever becomes an engineer.

APEGA has essentially the same rule in Alberta. That's what makes it impossible to log enough eligible hours to qualify for a P.Eng. It may well be the same in all provinces.

Consequently, although APEGA insists that only Professional Engineers can use the title "Software Engineer", they simultaneously make it impossible for anyone to ever use that title in practice. There's been at least one court case about it that I can recall.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#138

Post by andraganescu »

I think he is more about staying curious and dont over specialize. Also just saying a big no-no to what I call "coders", people who can code but have no clue to what is actually happening. There are so many "developers" who learned a kind of ... memorized way to code in some scripting language, and stopped there.

The "engineers" he speaks about are people who cannot limit themselves like that. However, "engineer" sounds a bit pretentious :D

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#139

Post by [deleted] »

tclmeelmo wrote: post #94
agentultra wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's a start. They don't offer one in my state/country yet but I'll definitely take it when they do. I think it's a necessary move. Liability should definitely be on the table as well at some point. The undertones at Blackhat and Defcon seemed to suggest some people think it's inevitable. There's nothing to be lost by adopting a more rigorous process and only much to gain. Especially with the advances in tooli…

> Well that's a start. They don't offer one in my state/country yet but I'll definitely take it when they do. It's not that simple. The quickest path to licensure is to graduate from an ABET-accredited engineering program (4 years), pass the fundamentals of engineering exam (which, likely being the "other disciplines" exam, requires general knowledge of engineering and science), perform engineering work supervised by…

[deleted]

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#140

Post by agentultra »

tclmeelmo wrote: post #94
agentultra wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's a start. They don't offer one in my state/country yet but I'll definitely take it when they do. I think it's a necessary move. Liability should definitely be on the table as well at some point. The undertones at Blackhat and Defcon seemed to suggest some people think it's inevitable. There's nothing to be lost by adopting a more rigorous process and only much to gain. Especially with the advances in tooli…

> Well that's a start. They don't offer one in my state/country yet but I'll definitely take it when they do. It's not that simple. The quickest path to licensure is to graduate from an ABET-accredited engineering program (4 years), pass the fundamentals of engineering exam (which, likely being the "other disciplines" exam, requires general knowledge of engineering and science), perform engineering work supervised by…

I've been shipping software for almost 14 years.

I've been picking up formal specifications, predicate calculus, etc rather well I think. I'm not afraid of doing the work: it's important!

And besides, the maths are beautiful.

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