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Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

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Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#171

Post by jonesb6 »

shawn-butler wrote: post #159
ahoy wrote: post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

>> Women tend to find themselves funneled into specific career paths that prioritize flexible hours and often pay less. Men face an opposite pressure - toward inflexible hours but higher pay. This is in large part because care for family members(children and elderly parents usually) is more often foisted upon women in our society than on men. >> I see no evidence to support this "funnel" at all in my life/work experi…

I believe you were down voted because you disagreed with the generally believed idea of "the funnel for women" and the generally believed idea of "flex schedules increase productivity" without providing any evidence.

I would point out that most people supporting both those ideas in this thread don't seem to be providing evidence either.

Everybody, I'm pretty sure the down vote is used to bury threads that don't add to the discussion. I think "shawn-butter"'s side deserves to be discussed.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#172

Post by Vraxx »

WalterSear wrote: post #92
SamBam wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not remotely facetious. Regularly doubling your hours in the office generally does not even remotely double a person's productivity. However, appearing to be a "team player" and always being in the office makes a person appear to be a hard worker. So people who put in long hours are generally rewarded with more bonuses, promotions, and retention, even if there isn't a strong correlation with their actual work ou…

>Regularly doubling your hours in the office generally does not even remotely double a person's productivity. Now you've erected a strawmen: no one said anything about doubling your hours. Good luck with your agenda and prejudice.

I think the point he was trying to make still holds without such absurd multipliers as "doubling", it's just an intuitively easy to grasp multiplier. What he's saying is that increasing your number of hours may get more absolute work done, but proportionally a person accomplishes less as more hours are worked. Thus, the correlation between time in office (hours) and productivity (work accomplished per unit time) is a negative correlation.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#173

Post by korethr »

parennoob wrote: post #84
ahoy wrote: post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

> We need to de-stigmatize flexible schedules. We need to upend the idea that family care is solely the domain of women (normalizing parental leave for fathers with newborns is a good start). Put another way, we need to upend the idea that hazardous and arduous jobs (often involving hard physical labor) are only the domain of men, and encourage more women to participate in industries like mining, firefighting, weldin…

If you make note of the differences in physiology between the male and female body, you might discover that there is a non-arbitrary reason why industries requiring hard physical labor have traditionally been the domain of men.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#174

Post by dalke »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #141
dalke wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wage disparity is caused by gender roles, not by discrimination How was Lilly Ledbetter's wage disparity caused by something other than discrimination on the basis of sex? Quoting from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilly_Ledbetter : "Initially, Ledbetter’s salary was in line with the salaries of men performing substantially similar work. Over time, however, her pay slipped in comparison to the pay of male area mana…

Single past data point does not make a modern day trend.

I'm glad you've clarified that statement "Wage disparity is caused by gender roles, not by discrimination" is incomplete, and that you accept that historical wage disparity included discrimination on the basis of sex.

However, your response is less than complete. What is "modern day"?

For example, "DU Law School is violating Equal Pay Act"/"The University of Denver is violating federal law by paying female law professors less than their male counterparts, according to the [EEOC]" (2015) - http://legacy.9news.com/story/news/education/2015/08/31/equa...

Why is "trend" relevant? Your clarified statement is that modern wage disparity is not due to discrimination. That means that even a handful of counter-examples would suffice to show that that statement is incorrect. Adding the term "trend" feels very much like you are moving the goalposts.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#175

Post by JonFish85 »

the_af wrote: post #110
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way to fix this is to create a social pressure to be open about salaries. Some want to fix this by teaching better negotiation skills to those who are poor at it, but as long as the social pressure is to hide this data, it is going to keep being a problem regardless if the cause is racism, sexism, classism, or just difference in negotiation skills.

Fully agreed. In some countries there is a taboo about openly discussing salaries, but keeping them secret only helps employers and hurts the negotiating power of employees.

Personally I think it'd be a pretty big distraction if everyone knew exactly how much everyone else made. I don't really care to know what the head of accounting is making, or what the customer support lead is making. If the company needs someone with a super-specialized skill and has to pay them 3x what I'm being paid, what business is it of mine?

If the company needed my skills desperately and I was offered 3x the salary that a current new hire is getting, I don't see how that's helping or hurting anyone else. If anything, I think knowing about it would lead to other company issues that are just a distraction from the overall business.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#176

Post by DanBC »

13thLetter wrote: post #85
eli wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are BLS numbers on profession by gender and age: http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat09.htm The legal profession has actually made significant progress in closing the gender gap. Tech has a problem with gender. I'm not sure it's helpful to point out that other fields also have similar or even worse problems.

> Tech has a problem with gender. I'm not sure it's helpful to point out that other fields also have similar or even worse problems. It kind of is. When there are other fields which both a) employ more people and b) have a much larger "problem," it's valid to ask why the laser-like focus on tech.

>why the laser-like focus on tech

This is a tech site. It's going to focus on tech wages. Other sites are focussing on the gap in motor repair or restaurant chefs or whatever.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#177

Post by Johnnybe »

jrock08 wrote: post #83
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I explain my issue with this question. >How it is more often foisted upon women? I show that there is an equal pressure put on men to do different things. My issue is with the "more often". Now, maybe you were only talking about the pressure on women and not the pressure on men... you should be able to see the issue with this as well.

Except that we are talking about why women on average don't make as much during their careers. You are punting and saying, well men have pressure to work more. You are absolutely right, and it should be part of the conversation, but you've not somehow proved that the women being encouraged to prioritize family isn't a problem.

It isn't a problem. Women generally should prioritize family. Women are generally more nurturing than men. Why are you making this out to be a problem?

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#178

Post by vacri »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #29
ahoy wrote: post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

>It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. It also doesn't account for full time covering a wide number of hours worked. Full time can be 37 hours a week or 45 hours a week, can comparing them as both just being 'full time' misses quite a lot. >This is in large part because care for family members(children and elderly parents usually) is more often foisted upon wome…

> I rather be with my kid than stuck an extra 20 hours in the office

Yeah, sure, it's the typical story for men, working an extra four hours in the office every day. It's so typical, no-one expects otherwise, and it's notable when the opposite happens.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#179

Post by jonesb6 »

dang wrote: post #6
jonesb6 wrote: post #4

"No salary gap exists between women and men in tech, says job search firm Dice, looking at its annual survey of 16,000 tech professionals, as long as you are comparing people with equal experience, education, and job titles. That, of course, is a big if. And previous data from Dice found about a $10,000 pay gap between men and women if not controlled for those factors. Dice’s president, Bob Melk, in a letter to the m…

Please don't just paste quotes from the article into the thread.

I saw that it was a very small article and thought it might benefit mobile readers who think twice before clicking a link, won't happen again.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#180

Post by RodericDay »

tomp wrote: post #135
RodericDay wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My solution may not be optimal, but the status quo is "male go-getter with supportive female companion" as standard model of coupling. If we have to deal with declining birthrates while we figure out a more fair and sane arrangement, that doesn't pit family building against professional success, I'm down.

> male go-getter with supportive female companion Do you have any objective reasons why this is suboptimal? Maybe we should go the other way; for example in the Netherlands, many women (with children) choose to work part-time (because they can). So maybe the "status quo" is by choice.

Maybe it's a biological choice, maybe it's cultural and social momentum from hundreds of years of forcing gender roles legally and violently.

Impossible to tell with our current experimental setup. I lean towards the latter though.

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