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Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

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Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#81

Post by stvswn »

ahoy wrote: post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

What if it's the case that preferences are different among men and women? Why do we assume that the women surveyed would prefer to have the higher paying but more demanding career paths?

My wife is very smart and capable of making a high salary. She chose a flexible job path and took several years off to be with our children in their younger years. We could certainly afford otherwise; our family would have more money had she decided to go the childcare route. It's just our choice, she has no regrets. It wasn't "foisted" upon her. In fact, it's the happiest she's ever been.

Is there something wrong with a woman prioritizing motherhood? Why does it feel to me that these conversations always frame parenting as some kind of tragedy that disrupts an otherwise successful career?

By the same token, I am very motivated to make enough money so that she can continue to stay home with our kids as long as she likes. I like seeing her and my kids happy. Should I be forced to slow down because this is unfair to women at my office?

This all seems crazy to me. Having kids is a blessing. I totally agree that people shouldn't feel a pressure to do it the "traditional" way or any other way for that matter -- I like when men are given the flexibility to take care of their children in support of their wives' careers. I just don't agree that slowing down one's career in order to prioritize parenthood is a problem that needs to be fixed.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#82

Post by iends »

mrrrgn wrote: post #70
RodericDay wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the idea of "mandatory paternity leave", to make up for the biological asymmetry. Even if you have a stereotypical breadwinner/housewife relationship, you are legally mandated to take time off, even if you don't want to. That way you avoid the "you're allowed to take paternal leave, but real go-getters don't!" game altogether. edit: The way I see it, the responses just prove my point. "This would just make peo…

We already suffer from declining birthrates in the west. Your solution would make not having a child the best choice for "go-getters."

Isn't that already the case?

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#83

Post by jrock08 »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #50
SamBam wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > This is in large part because care for family members(children and elderly parents usually) is more often foisted upon women in our society than on men. > How it is more often foisted upon women? The social pressure on men to take deadly jobs and to work longer hours is equal to the social pressure on women to choose careers where they can take time off and be with their kids. So... you're saying the exact same t…

I explain my issue with this question. >How it is more often foisted upon women? I show that there is an equal pressure put on men to do different things. My issue is with the "more often". Now, maybe you were only talking about the pressure on women and not the pressure on men... you should be able to see the issue with this as well.

Except that we are talking about why women on average don't make as much during their careers. You are punting and saying, well men have pressure to work more. You are absolutely right, and it should be part of the conversation, but you've not somehow proved that the women being encouraged to prioritize family isn't a problem.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#84

Post by parennoob »

ahoy wrote: post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

> We need to de-stigmatize flexible schedules. We need to upend the idea that family care is solely the domain of women (normalizing parental leave for fathers with newborns is a good start).

Put another way, we need to upend the idea that hazardous and arduous jobs (often involving hard physical labor) are only the domain of men, and encourage more women to participate in industries like mining, firefighting, welding, truck driving, and construction.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#85

Post by 13thLetter »

eli wrote: post #52
kough wrote: post #22

Does anyone have a link to reliable breakdowns of different professions by race and gender? Tech gets slammed particularly hard for being "white male cishet scum" and I'd love to see how it compares to other fields. I can't imagine fields like law or nursing or mining or teaching or policing are much more equal.

Here are BLS numbers on profession by gender and age: http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat09.htm The legal profession has actually made significant progress in closing the gender gap. Tech has a problem with gender. I'm not sure it's helpful to point out that other fields also have similar or even worse problems.

> Tech has a problem with gender. I'm not sure it's helpful to point out that other fields also have similar or even worse problems.

It kind of is. When there are other fields which both a) employ more people and b) have a much larger "problem," it's valid to ask why the laser-like focus on tech.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#86

Post by RodericDay »

mrrrgn wrote: post #70
RodericDay wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the idea of "mandatory paternity leave", to make up for the biological asymmetry. Even if you have a stereotypical breadwinner/housewife relationship, you are legally mandated to take time off, even if you don't want to. That way you avoid the "you're allowed to take paternal leave, but real go-getters don't!" game altogether. edit: The way I see it, the responses just prove my point. "This would just make peo…

We already suffer from declining birthrates in the west. Your solution would make not having a child the best choice for "go-getters."

My solution may not be optimal, but the status quo is "male go-getter with supportive female companion" as standard model of coupling.

If we have to deal with declining birthrates while we figure out a more fair and sane arrangement, that doesn't pit family building against professional success, I'm down.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#87

Post by caublestone »

ahoy wrote: post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

63% of minimum wage workers are women:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/who-are-...

Increasing minimum wage would effectively increase the 77% number also.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#88

Post by rqebmm »

eli wrote: post #73
rqebmm wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was able to do a quick analysis of US government data about a year ago when the 77% thing was at it's height, and the industries with the largest raw discrepancy were Business and legal services. Tech was ~94% if I recall. I'll see if I can dig it up again. edit: Here's an updated version for 2015: http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm edit2: And here's a curated google doc where I calculated the gender gap for each…

You're talking about whether men and women in the same field get roughly paid the same. That's a separate issue from the ratio of men to women in the field.

That's true. Re-reading OP I'm honestly not clear which they were looking for, so I've added that to the sheet as well.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#89

Post by varjag »

xyzzyz wrote: post #71
abraca wrote: post #43

I'm surprised. In a technical PM role a few years ago I found out that I earned 20-40% less than other PM's at the company. There were more than a dozen PM's and I was the only woman who was mid-level seniority. My male direct report made almost the same as me, while my female direct reports made a lot less. In my case it was not due to lack of initial negotiation, but that at each promotion I didn't get a sufficient…

> It's strange to me that HR never seems to pick up on things like this!! I don't think it is strange at all -- after all, it is in the company best interest to pay the employees as little as necessary. Engineers benefit company by building products. HR benefit company by (among other things) figuring out how to save money on salaries.

It's actually in the name. You are a resource for a purchasing department. I can't understand how people come to assume HR is on their side: it's not a union.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#90

Post by [deleted] »

akavi wrote: post #48
SamBam wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > This is in large part because care for family members(children and elderly parents usually) is more often foisted upon women in our society than on men. > How it is more often foisted upon women? The social pressure on men to take deadly jobs and to work longer hours is equal to the social pressure on women to choose careers where they can take time off and be with their kids. So... you're saying the exact same t…

The framing does make a difference, as it sets the perception of which gender is being "wronged". I think the GP is arguing that one could replace "care for family members... is more often foisted upon women" with "the burden of providing financially... is more often foisted upon men", and thereby shift the focus from injustice against women to injustice against men, while being an equally valid interpretation of the…

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