Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries • Hacker News Board

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#161

Post by hnal943 » Thu, Mar 03, 2016, 8:47 PM UTC

shostack wrote: post #64

ultramancool wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a really interesting freakonomics radio episode that goes into some good detail here if anyone's curious where these differences really originate: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender...

Beat me to it. The episode is basically an interview with Claudia Goldin who is about as qualified a person as you could hope for to speak on this matter. [1] tl;dr women start out with equal pay, but trade pure monetary compensation for flexibility and/or fewer hours when they have kids because society still sucks at gender equality when it comes to enabling parents to equally contribute to certain aspects of parent…

I don't understand why we want a society where everyone is trying to both parent and work full time. Specialization is a powerful tool. Speaking personally it makes a lot more sense for my wife to stay home and have primary responsibility for raising our kids and managing our household while I focus on my career. Implicit in this discussion is that the woman who choose flexibility and child-rearing options are oppressed or less than and it's not the case in reality.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#162

Post by pasquinelli » Thu, Mar 03, 2016, 8:47 PM UTC

nickff wrote: post #136

stale2002 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both are true and both need to be fixed. Yes, men are often pressured to be the breadwinner of the family. That is a problem too, and it should be less stigmatized for the women to be an equal breadwinner.

You are implicitly assuming that there are no differences between male and female preferences (on average). It seems plausible that biologically-originated gender differences may extend beyond genitalia. Is there any reason to believe men and women have the same priorities, abilities, and preferences, and that we should expect them to attain the same outcomes?

is there anything in particular necessitating any belief at all about what priorities, abilities, and preferences men or women have? you can assess those things for actual, concrete human beings. there doesn't need to be any social pressure on people of any gender to conform to any of those notions.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#163

Post by zeveb » Thu, Mar 03, 2016, 8:48 PM UTC

shostack wrote: post #64

ultramancool wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a really interesting freakonomics radio episode that goes into some good detail here if anyone's curious where these differences really originate: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender...

Beat me to it. The episode is basically an interview with Claudia Goldin who is about as qualified a person as you could hope for to speak on this matter. [1] tl;dr women start out with equal pay, but trade pure monetary compensation for flexibility and/or fewer hours when they have kids because society still sucks at gender equality when it comes to enabling parents to equally contribute to certain aspects of parent…

> … because society still sucks at gender equality when it comes to enabling parents to equally contribute to certain aspects of parenting.

You're assuming that even if society enabled the sexes to take equal time off that the sexes would, in fact, take equal time off. I suppose we could force people to take equal time off, but that hardly seems fair or right.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#164

Post by randyrand » Thu, Mar 03, 2016, 8:49 PM UTC

shostack wrote: post #64

ultramancool wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a really interesting freakonomics radio episode that goes into some good detail here if anyone's curious where these differences really originate: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender...

Beat me to it. The episode is basically an interview with Claudia Goldin who is about as qualified a person as you could hope for to speak on this matter. [1] tl;dr women start out with equal pay, but trade pure monetary compensation for flexibility and/or fewer hours when they have kids because society still sucks at gender equality when it comes to enabling parents to equally contribute to certain aspects of parent…

> society still sucks at gender equality when it comes to enabling parents to equally contribute

With very few exceptions, mammalian females are almost entirely responsible for child-rearing across the board. So all signs point that its also hormones too. We as a society need to start equalizing hormones. Women need to start taking testosterone and men need to take estrogen. We will only be equal once there is a single androgynous gender. This is the equality we are fighting for. This is the equality we deserve. #androgyny2016

Seriously though, there are some gender differences worth leaving to freedom of choice. Propensity to child-rear and hormone levels are among them, IMO.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#165

Post by DominikR » Thu, Mar 03, 2016, 8:49 PM UTC

SamBam wrote: post #45

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. It also doesn't account for full time covering a wide number of hours worked. Full time can be 37 hours a week or 45 hours a week, can comparing them as both just being 'full time' misses quite a lot. >This is in large part because care for family members(children and elderly parents usually) is more often foisted upon wome…

> > This is in large part because care for family members(children and elderly parents usually) is more often foisted upon women in our society than on men. > How it is more often foisted upon women? The social pressure on men to take deadly jobs and to work longer hours is equal to the social pressure on women to choose careers where they can take time off and be with their kids. So... you're saying the exact same t…

> So what did you take issue with in the statement above? Just the word "foist," maybe?

Have you considered that most women actually prefer spending more time with their children and therefore prefer men that earn more to finance this? (therefore men focus on their career to attract women that usually at some point prefer to work on flexible schedules)

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#166

Post by dota_fanatic » Thu, Mar 03, 2016, 8:51 PM UTC

parennoob wrote: post #111

jrock08 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that we are talking about why women on average don't make as much during their careers. You are punting and saying, well men have pressure to work more. You are absolutely right, and it should be part of the conversation, but you've not somehow proved that the women being encouraged to prioritize family isn't a problem.

It's two sides of the same coin – women are pressured to pay more attention to family with the exact same mechanisms (society, older relatives, media etc.) that men are pressured into working long hours and being primary breadwinners. Unfortunately, most comments only mention one side of the problem (that of women being pressured to focus on family), and that leads to reflexive "But what about the pressure on men?" i…

Great point—the context of both roles in a partnership is important to the discussion. Having said that, what about single parents who now must do "both" jobs? Women are at a systematic disadvantage in this scenario.

Bottom line for me is that women are doing more unpaid work than men in all cultures. Melinda Gates talks about this at length in their recent letters for 2016[1], and it's a pretty damning picture that whatever the pressures are on men, women have it systematically worse.

There is nothing about cleaning, or laundry, or sick care, or because they're women> that makes them not like doing unpaid work anymore than men. Nobody likes doing thankless work, and everybody likes getting paid to do work (and enjoy the freedoms that having money permits). This distribution of work is bullshit, especially in this day and age of increased automation where wages based on dual earners is the norm if you want a middle class existence and are average.

[1] https://www.gatesnotes.com/2016-Annual-Letter

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#167

Post by 4bpp » Thu, Mar 03, 2016, 8:51 PM UTC

SamBam wrote: post #45

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. It also doesn't account for full time covering a wide number of hours worked. Full time can be 37 hours a week or 45 hours a week, can comparing them as both just being 'full time' misses quite a lot. >This is in large part because care for family members(children and elderly parents usually) is more often foisted upon wome…

> > This is in large part because care for family members(children and elderly parents usually) is more often foisted upon women in our society than on men. > How it is more often foisted upon women? The social pressure on men to take deadly jobs and to work longer hours is equal to the social pressure on women to choose careers where they can take time off and be with their kids. So... you're saying the exact same t…

The word "foist" does imply coercion to do something that is against the target's will or interest. Would you be equally okay with the statement being replaced with "self-sacrificial status climbing is more often foisted upon men in our society"? Add to that the common narrative* that men are in charge in our society and therefore social pressure is essentially equivalent to pressure exerted by men, and you quickly get a statement that amounts to "[the problems we observe] are caused by men forcing women to care for family members".

* Even if you don't actually subscribe to this position yourself, it's unfortunately in the nature of debate on a politicised topic like this that the moment you take a position associated with one of the standard camps ("the American Left" or "the Blue Tribe" here, I guess), people will assume that you also hold other opinions typical of that camp. Certainly, "men hold the power in American society" is one of those typical opinions.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#168

Post by com2kid » Thu, Mar 03, 2016, 8:51 PM UTC

api_or_ipa wrote: post #21

What is interesting is the breakdown of motivations between men and women. It seems readily apparent that women on the whole prefer flexible work arrangements because of child raising obligations. This is exactly the same argument lobbed across the wage gap discussion for years now. Proponents of the wage-gap point that women have an unfair obligation to child-raising duties, which puts them at a disadvantage when co…

> What is interesting is the breakdown of motivations between men and women. It seems readily apparent that women on the whole prefer flexible work arrangements because of child raising obligations. This is exactly the same argument lobbed across the wage gap discussion for years now. Proponents of the wage-gap point that women have an unfair obligation to child-raising duties, which puts them at a disadvantage when compared to their male peers.

From my graduating class, going into the same company, men earned more money. I know first hand that earned 10k more than a female classmate going into the exact same job title with the same expectations.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#169

Post by ahoy » Thu, Mar 03, 2016, 8:51 PM UTC

akavi wrote: post #48

SamBam wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > This is in large part because care for family members(children and elderly parents usually) is more often foisted upon women in our society than on men. > How it is more often foisted upon women? The social pressure on men to take deadly jobs and to work longer hours is equal to the social pressure on women to choose careers where they can take time off and be with their kids. So... you're saying the exact same t…

The framing does make a difference, as it sets the perception of which gender is being "wronged". I think the GP is arguing that one could replace "care for family members... is more often foisted upon women" with "the burden of providing financially... is more often foisted upon men", and thereby shift the focus from injustice against women to injustice against men, while being an equally valid interpretation of the…

I chose my language specifically. Single women are more often family caregivers than are single men.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#170

Post by rosser » Thu, Mar 03, 2016, 8:51 PM UTC

nsxwolf wrote: post #154

rosser wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people should totally be making major life decisions on the basis of what employers will "tolerate". FFS. We've already ceded enough control over our lives to these companies whose only agenda is to suck people dry, and then find new ways to wring even more out of them. Businesses exist to serve people's needs and interests. People do not exist to serve businesses.

There's not a whole lot you can do about discrimination. Unless the employers are dumb enough talk openly about what they're doing. They can find any subjective reason they like and claim that's the reason for letting you go. You can try to sue, and sometimes you'll even win, but there's no Job Police SWAT Team that will beat down the door and force them to give you your job back in time for your next mortgage paymen…

They can find any subjective reason they like and claim that's the reason for letting you go.

Oh, believe me, I know. I was dismissed from my last job for having the temerity to take a leave of absence — negotiated in advance with the company, with C-staff level approval — to travel for a few months. When I returned, they presented me with a materially altered performance review (fact-checked with the manager who actually wrote the review), filled with straight-up lies, and said that was why they were firing me.

If you dare to decide the life your job pays for is more important than the job itself, well, there's the door...