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Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

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Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#81

Post by whitegrape »

makeitsuckless wrote: post #68

Feels like we're chasing our tails on this one. We went from "programmers" to "developers" to "engineers". Every time it started well, because only people with the right mindset referred to themselves and the people they looked for that way, but pretty soon the rest catches up and the term devalues. We should just call ourselves codemonkeys and focus on doing the job well regardless.

I still default to calling myself a programmer or a coder... I'm happy to ride the social status train of "Software Engineer", but I don't pretend it's anything else, and it could swiftly be taken away if some Congress Critters got it into their heads that because in general none of us are licensed PEs we don't deserve to call ourselves engineers. I sometimes think it might be good for that to happen so that some of us have less-inflated views of ourselves and our profession, but judging from other countries that have such restrictions, we'd probably get a significant salary cut to go along with it while the business people with MBAs reap even larger shares of whatever company's profits which are only made possible by code monkeys...

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#82

Post by Kinnard »

aikah wrote: post #80

And are you willing to pay your "software engineers" what they are worth? because that's often the issue at end. Plenty of good "engineers". Not that many startup willing to pay them fairly. You want the best people but you don't want to pay them the "best" money? you get what you pay for.

I think a lot of engineers are motivated by other things. By contrast I think a lot of "bootcampers" are looking for a salary pop.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#83

Post by Kinnard »

agarden wrote: post #34

His distinction between 'engineer' and 'developer' is artificial and easily criticized. That isn't what is interesting in this article. There are a lot of things that are. Their method for avoiding the proliferation of different tools is interesting. His discussion of the kind of people they want, once you ignore the semantics, is interesting. They want people who take responsibility and are always pushing the bounda…

It is artificial and easily criticized but I think it is also widely understood and accepted.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#84

Post by FLUX-YOU »

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #19

I am sympathetic to the distinction. I had a bunch of applicants for a position claiming to be "Distributed Systems Engineers" mostly because they'd stood-up, maintained, and or used a Hadoop or Spark cluster in their current or prior job. But to me that was more of an advanced (one hopes) end-user. Someone who could take a bunch of large, mostly-complete logical components that somebody else engineered and then use…

> A lot of what passes for "engineering" today, at least by marketplace label, tends to resemble the former rather than the latter.

We can keep reclassifying what it takes to earn that label until we've eliminated all but the geniuses of the software world. The titles (and seniority) are, frankly, useless because they aren't legally enforced because no one has a good and popular way to test for competency. If they did, that would be the technical interview and then market forces could once again weed out people who don't make it.

There really isn't any push back when you have an opinion on what a software engineer ought to be when you're hiring, so naturally, a lot of people have their own opinion. Figuring out which direction to go if you are one of those supposed engineers is pretty much a crap shoot but still better than just not learning anything new.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#85

Post by beeboop »

p4wnc6 wrote: post #71

I recently applied for a position at Etsy, and one of the main points I make in my self summary is that I am most motivated by craftsmanship and an attention to quality (I think a lot of developers feel this way, and more should practice speaking up about it for interviews). I was told I would have a phone interview with someone from the hiring team. Weeks went by and I got zero response. I figured I had just been re…

It's probably some poorly implemented HR policy that if there's a job opening they still have to publicly post it even if there's someone internally who fits the bill and wants it. I ran into something similar at my first job out of college (which was a shitty place to work in many ways). There was a job opening, they posted it, and even as an existing employee they wouldn't interview me for it because they already had someone in mind internally that was essentially going to be a shoe-in.

Requiring a public posting is a good idea in theory, but in reality it seems most places are just wasting people's time because external candidates are never seriously considered.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#86

Post by fapjacks »

estefan wrote: post #24
commenter1239 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I see the following terms, I usually move on: Guru, Ninja, Wizard, Rockstar. I am none of these.

Agree. Nor do I want to associate with people who think they are.

This right here.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#87

Post by agentultra »

jnbiche wrote: post #73
agentultra wrote: post #43

> Engineering, as a discipline and as an activity, is multi-disciplinary. It’s just messy. I would qualify that and say "software engineering," as we understand it today is messy. That's because it's not engineering as a recognized discipline (and seems to be the reason why we can get away with calling ourselves engineers and not be sued). If your process involves thinking immediately about how to write the solution…

> That's because it's not engineering as a recognized discipline (and seems to be the reason why we can get away with calling ourselves engineers and not be sued). I'm consistently surprised at how little programmers/developers and software engineers are aware of the progress made here over the past 5 years. Software engineering most definitely is a recognized engineering discipline nationally and in most states: htt…

Well that's a start. They don't offer one in my state/country yet but I'll definitely take it when they do.

I think it's a necessary move. Liability should definitely be on the table as well at some point. The undertones at Blackhat and Defcon seemed to suggest some people think it's inevitable.

There's nothing to be lost by adopting a more rigorous process and only much to gain. Especially with the advances in tooling we have available: TLA+, Unit-B, Agda, Ada... etc.

I have a feeling Sussman may be right when it comes to lawyers and software -- the safest thing to do for a system where liability is a concern is probably to shut off in the face of a sub-system failure... which is probably less than ideal. However I'm confident there could be ways to specify a system that can do "reasonable" things in the face of non-terminal situations (ie: if I lose my writing arm I still have another one that's capable of doing a reasonable job to carry out the task).

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#88

Post by brbrodude »

andersonmvd wrote: post #36

I agree that there is a distinction. At least for me, developer is solely focused on shipping code, although it's unavoidable to meet problems that require engineering. When facing such problem, the developer will focus on 'making it work', instead of focusing on answering 'how should I proper architecture it?'. The curiosity of answering the later question comes from an engineer that also wants to know about network…

Sorry to say but thats just going with ad-hoc explanations, I'm from Brazil and from my understanding only people who have a engineering degree can call themselves engineers, I worry about finding the keys to perfect software and perfect software development every single day, but in my view there is not Software Engineering yet. Almost everyone has its own idea of what software engineering is... thats not how engineering disciplines work.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#89

Post by p4wnc6 »

beeboop wrote: post #85
p4wnc6 wrote: post #71

I recently applied for a position at Etsy, and one of the main points I make in my self summary is that I am most motivated by craftsmanship and an attention to quality (I think a lot of developers feel this way, and more should practice speaking up about it for interviews). I was told I would have a phone interview with someone from the hiring team. Weeks went by and I got zero response. I figured I had just been re…

It's probably some poorly implemented HR policy that if there's a job opening they still have to publicly post it even if there's someone internally who fits the bill and wants it. I ran into something similar at my first job out of college (which was a shitty place to work in many ways). There was a job opening, they posted it, and even as an existing employee they wouldn't interview me for it because they already h…

But what was weird is that they did go through a non-trivial amount of the initial interview process with me, then became silent for 3 weeks, and then said that they had an internal candidate. (It sounded to me like the internal candidate applied for the role after my first interview, but I can't say for sure).

That's why it struck me as so strange.

Re: Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers

#90

Post by fapjacks »

whitegrape wrote: post #81
makeitsuckless wrote: post #68

Feels like we're chasing our tails on this one. We went from "programmers" to "developers" to "engineers". Every time it started well, because only people with the right mindset referred to themselves and the people they looked for that way, but pretty soon the rest catches up and the term devalues. We should just call ourselves codemonkeys and focus on doing the job well regardless.

I still default to calling myself a programmer or a coder... I'm happy to ride the social status train of "Software Engineer", but I don't pretend it's anything else, and it could swiftly be taken away if some Congress Critters got it into their heads that because in general none of us are licensed PEs we don't deserve to call ourselves engineers. I sometimes think it might be good for that to happen so that some of…

This is also how I refer to myself on things like tax forms, political campaign contribution statements, and in conversations with plebs. I'm a "computer programmer", regardless of what it says on the paperwork at the office.
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