Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs • Hacker News Board

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#161

Post by LeifCarrotson » Wed, Mar 02, 2016, 2:25 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #127

bdavisx wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, that's not true. In Florida a year or two ago, ~58% voted to legalize medical marijuana, but the vote needed 60% because it was a ballot initiative. How come the Florida reps didn't go ahead and do it themselves since obviously a majority of their electorate voted that way? It's about a lot more than the electorate.

58% of the population or of the voters in that poll?

More to the point, the 58% is the fraction of the people who feel strongly for or against the drug question. Those are likely not the same segment of the population that votes for the legislature, and neither group is representative of the population!

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#162

Post by bdavisx » Wed, Mar 02, 2016, 2:25 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #127

bdavisx wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, that's not true. In Florida a year or two ago, ~58% voted to legalize medical marijuana, but the vote needed 60% because it was a ballot initiative. How come the Florida reps didn't go ahead and do it themselves since obviously a majority of their electorate voted that way? It's about a lot more than the electorate.

58% of the population or of the voters in that poll?

People who vote are the electorate, if you don't vote, you don't matter.

But to answer your question, it was voters.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#163

Post by seren » Wed, Mar 02, 2016, 2:25 PM UTC

drumdance wrote: post #157

jfmfhhdkdkd wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Japan and Hong Kong and many others still have far lower drug use and crime rates despite their very tough laws on drug use, when compared to Portugal.

They also have very homogenous populations with a strong, shared sense of cultural identity.

I am not sure that having a strong cultural identity as anything to do with drugs consumption. For example, I am pretty sure Russians also have a fairly homogenous population with a strong identity, and they still have an alcohol problem (for other reason I am sure). But I can't see the correlation or the causation here.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#164

Post by ghayes » Wed, Mar 02, 2016, 2:27 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #158

Synaesthesia wrote: post #41

The drug problem was studied years ago by the RAND corporation and the US Military - a pure cost-benefit analysis. They found that treatment and education are the most cost effective way to deal with the drug problem, and that prohibition was the most costly and ineffective means of dealing with it. Therefore the government understands that the war on drugs is likely to be unsuccessful, and we have to ask ourselves,…

The government persists with the drug war because Americans have a moral opposition to drug use: http://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2014/study-public-fe... . When I was a kid in the 1990's, 70-80% of polled adults wanted to make even marijuana illegal. For drugs aside from marijuana, that's still the case. Your alternate theories about money and control directly contradict the history of prohibition. Did you kno…

I feel you're right that, at the end of the day, prohibition has been based on public opinion. That said, the government does benefit from reasons OP mentioned, and thus politicians may be likely to push an agenda that strongly supports a war on drugs when speaking to constituents, rather than having an open conversation about the pros and cons of decriminalization.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#165

Post by tomphoolery » Wed, Mar 02, 2016, 2:27 PM UTC

Synaesthesia wrote: post #41

The drug problem was studied years ago by the RAND corporation and the US Military - a pure cost-benefit analysis. They found that treatment and education are the most cost effective way to deal with the drug problem, and that prohibition was the most costly and ineffective means of dealing with it. Therefore the government understands that the war on drugs is likely to be unsuccessful, and we have to ask ourselves,…

They're not the only ones who benefit from the drug war. It's a tool in order to allow for mass incarceration of "undesirable people". The book "The New Jim Crow" by Michelle Alexander really spoke to me as a resident of Philadelphia. I knew full well that if a cop found 1/4oz of weed or less on me, they wouldn't do anything...but if I was black, I'd be put in jail. Now that marijuana has been "decriminalized" (I call it "equalizing" the law because it's now fair for all people) in Philadelphia, that's not as much of a problem in my city...but I'm pretty sure statewide it's still a big problem. Essentially, I think the drug war is a big, lame excuse for putting people in jail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Jim_Crow

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#166

Post by adrianm » Wed, Mar 02, 2016, 2:27 PM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #159

One thing I am surprised by is that it is almost never mentioned how China became drug free after Britain made China into the biggest dope user through the Opium wars. They virtually got rid of opium usage in a relatively short time, and they did it without any sort of war on drugs approach. They certainly fought the drug usage but they did not imprison or blame drug users. Rather than told abusers they were victims…

China is virtually drug free?

In that case, Wikipedia could use your help cleaning up this and many related articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_drug_trade_in_China

Don't forget to cite your sources! They're sticklers about that sort of thing.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#167

Post by cr1895 » Wed, Mar 02, 2016, 2:30 PM UTC

seren wrote: post #163

drumdance wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also have very homogenous populations with a strong, shared sense of cultural identity.

I am not sure that having a strong cultural identity as anything to do with drugs consumption. For example, I am pretty sure Russians also have a fairly homogenous population with a strong identity, and they still have an alcohol problem (for other reason I am sure). But I can't see the correlation or the causation here.

>I am not sure that having a strong cultural identity as anything to do with drugs consumption.

Why can't it? Drug use could be socially shunned, counter to cultural norms. Consider Islamic countries where alcohol use is haram. Consider also that alcohol use in both Japan and Russia is culturally accepted. Alcoholism is a significant problem in Japan too.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#168

Post by drumdance » Wed, Mar 02, 2016, 2:31 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #102

puranjay wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder what would happen to drug use if it was widely and easily available. Would usage drop because it wouldn't be "rebellious" to get drugs? That was at least the motivation for a lot of younger drug users I know. In my country (India), there is a region in the Himalayas - Kasaul - where marijuana grows in the wild. It is so easily accessible that you can literally pluck some on a walk through the forest.…

In the US culture, I think a lot would depend on marketing and advertising. Consider the marketing of high fructose corn syrup, which is cheap, legal, hardly "rebellious," possibly a sort of low-grade high, and consumed in toxic quantities. I'm not arguing against legalization. But I had a similar conversation with my kids about legalizing pot. I told them that whatever the health aspects of pot use are, the pot indu…

High fructose corn syrup isn't marketed to consumers. It's marketed to corporations that otherwise would use sugar. Sugar is much more expensive in the US than elsewhere because of BS tariffs advocated for by Florida sugar barons.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#169

Post by belorn » Wed, Mar 02, 2016, 2:31 PM UTC

Synaesthesia wrote: post #41

The drug problem was studied years ago by the RAND corporation and the US Military - a pure cost-benefit analysis. They found that treatment and education are the most cost effective way to deal with the drug problem, and that prohibition was the most costly and ineffective means of dealing with it. Therefore the government understands that the war on drugs is likely to be unsuccessful, and we have to ask ourselves,…

> why do they persist with it?

I suspect a major cause is that prohibition is a well known method, used to handle other substances which the state wants to limit access to. Narcotics is intended for medicine and research, which makes it easy to regulate to licensed organizations. They use the same method for substances that is used to create explosives, weapon components, radioactive material, and so on. In Sweden, even things like pure alcohol or pure oxygen is regulated and require a license, since the target audience for that is quite narrow.

No one ever got fired for buying IBM, and no politician got blamed if they create regulations that limit use to only the intended target audience. Its not about being effective.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#170

Post by drumdance » Wed, Mar 02, 2016, 2:31 PM UTC

seren wrote: post #163

drumdance wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also have very homogenous populations with a strong, shared sense of cultural identity.

I am not sure that having a strong cultural identity as anything to do with drugs consumption. For example, I am pretty sure Russians also have a fairly homogenous population with a strong identity, and they still have an alcohol problem (for other reason I am sure). But I can't see the correlation or the causation here.

Vodka is part of the Russian identity. Marijuana is not part of Hong Kong's identity.