Live data from Hacker News

Play nice - How the internet is trying to design out toxic behaviour

theguardian.com

11–20 of 34 posts

Re: Play nice - How the internet is trying to design out toxic behaviour

#11
post #2

Censoring the internet, what could go wrong?

>>You f\king w\\re, I'm going to ra\e you, and kill your family and pet, and tort\* you till you beg for mercy, and I'm going to feed your pieces to your dogs, if you dare talk anything on this issue again.

As you see, this works both ways.

Above, it should have been clear I was clearly using threatening language for elucidation process. And yet, something _must_ have 'jumped' in you. Even if a little bit. Even after '' out the important words. Even after I toned down what I'd originally planned to write. Now imagine, I didn't make it as obvious it was for education purposes, but it was reasonably clear to guess I meant it that way. And then imagine there was no commentary. Now consider the possibility I am a random stranger who might actually have meant it. Women and minorities do* go through it every day. Every damn day. Now, you can call it free speech, and banning anything similar censoring. In which case, I will have to work on a few sockpuppet bots to prove my point more clearly ;). My point is, you are being reductive in looking the world as 'censorship', and 'free speech'. This argument has happened for thousands of years, and it speeds up if all caught up on the definitions of 'reasonable threats', 'hate speech' etcetera, and the historical contexts surrounding such issues.

Re: Play nice - How the internet is trying to design out toxic behaviour

#12
post #6

I had considered a much longer criticism of this article, but I soon realized that there was no sense in complaining about a service which is no longer " ours ." The internet of today (Internet 2.x), is little more than an advertising space , a vehicle through which users mistakenly approach as an encyclopedia housing the world's information, while in actuality, the user is product. So I'll just touch on one point in…

Why are we jumping to the conclusion that the whole internet would follow the same rules though? I imagine some sites would want to cultivate certain kinds of humor (it might allow abuse, but at least not everyone's walking on eggshells), and others don't (and would rather enforce some rules in the hopes of cultivating an abuse-minimized environment). Why wouldn't each individual service be able to make its own trade…

>Back in the day they had to close their eyes and ignore. Now in the day they craft software that ignores and filters out toxic behavior before it even gets to their eyes. ;) You think we're regressing?

Yes, I do.

Software could have been, and always can be, improved at the "regex level" (finding bad worse, slanderous words, etc.) but the money is now in catering an experience to where things one simply disagrees with can create a false positive as "toxic behavior." And it often does.

The dialogue has completely regressed, and will continue to do so as long as catering to as wide an audience as possible is the Modus Operandi of Internet 2.x

And it's quite simplistic to write off the past as "closing ones eyes and ignoring." At the very least, IRC channels had moderators.

Re: Play nice - How the internet is trying to design out toxic behaviour

#13
post #2

Censoring the internet, what could go wrong?

>>You f\ king w\ \ re, I'm going to ra\ e you, and kill your family and pet, and tort\* you till you beg for mercy, and I'm going to feed your pieces to your dogs, if you dare talk anything on this issue again. As you see, this works both ways. Above, it should have been clear I was clearly using threatening language for elucidation process. And yet, something _must_ have 'jumped' in you. Even if a little bit. Even a…

I've heard worse from a pull request on an open source project.

Re: Play nice - How the internet is trying to design out toxic behaviour

#14
I'm curious. Do others see this (among other faults) as a criticism and attack on everything masculine? It's pretty thinly veiled to pretend to be egalitarian.

Unicorns and rainbows, every reference is to a woman, how girls are suppressed, bad behaviour is like "football" fans. They even slipped in a misogyny! Feminist bingo!

It fascinates me. We condemn the KKK for treating groups of people differently. Yet, when feminism (referred in the article) makes sexist and false statements, it's lorded by the media. For example, in Australia, domestic violence was a "man" thing. When a mother killed her daughter/son is was never domestic violence. "Men" need to be educated. However, when you have a group (feminism, KKK) that prioritise one group over another, you get these propaganda campaigns that tend to spread worldwide. They encourage intolerance and demonise others.

Now, a fundamental problem with this article's proposal Is that you can be as intolerant as you like as long as you don't say curse words (unicorns and rainbows) and threaten to hit/kill someone. The truth is that far more damage has been done by far more subtle propaganda campaigns, especially in the last 5 years. Not one of them would be stopped by this proposal.

Re: Play nice - How the internet is trying to design out toxic behaviour

#15

I had considered a much longer criticism of this article, but I soon realized that there was no sense in complaining about a service which is no longer " ours ." The internet of today (Internet 2.x), is little more than an advertising space , a vehicle through which users mistakenly approach as an encyclopedia housing the world's information, while in actuality, the user is product. So I'll just touch on one point in…

This is about removing death threats and abuse, not humour.

Reddit is absolutely not a sanitised part of the internet, and I see far more people complaining there about political correctness than actually restraining what they say. I see dry humour as more of a product of geekiness and a text-only medium, causing non-literalist humour to get a bad reception.

Randi Harper's essay https://medium.com/art-marketing/putting-out-the-twitter-tra... is all about improvements to the mechanism of twitter to enable the users to filter out toxic behaviour - at the moment, if you're a prominent woman on twitter and you offend the wrong people, you'll get drowned in toxic behaviour.

Re: Play nice - How the internet is trying to design out toxic behaviour

#16
First problem: anonymity + some assholes = mess (the Penny Arcade version:[1])

Facebook dealt with this by requiring "real names". Except from some whining from drag queens, this has worked well.

Wikipedia has an ongoing struggle with this, but because everything on Wikipedia can be undone, users have reputations, and the asshole fraction isn't that large, Wikipedia continues to work.

Any system where fake identities can be created in bulk at low cost suffers badly from this problem. Email, especially. Interestingly, if you have conversations, and not much happens based on single messages, it's less of a problem. Twitter and IRC are examples.

Second problem: once the bulk junk identity problem is under control, how do you get people to behave reasonably well? Wikipedia does this surprisingly well, with a complex set of rules and an explicit requirement of civility. (Many new editors complain that it's hard to edit Wikipedia, but that's because they treat it like a blog. Think of it more like checking out something from Github and submitting a pull request.)

Newspaper comment sections do this badly. Karma-based systems such as the one here and on Slashdot do it reasonably well. Fancier karma systems are possible; Civil Comments seems to be using something like the ELO algorithm. It takes a lot of user time to crowdsource such rankings, and that's a scarce resource. Not many people want to do Mechanical Turk work for free.

[1] https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

Re: Play nice - How the internet is trying to design out toxic behaviour

#18
Correction.

If you're a lying, abusive, or manipulative woman on Twitter you'll get drowned in "harassment" (a redefining of the word "disagreement") . Then you can turn around and pretend to be the victim because of your gender and/or sexual identity and useful idiots will lap it up and defend you. Regardless if you're a known pedophile, a spouse beater, a harasser from the Something Awful forums, or known scam-artist.

Are you aware of the abuse Randi is known for in the FreeBSD community? She's the last person who should be speaking about dealing with it while she dishes it out herself left and right.

As far as Twitter goes, men receive abuse twice as often as women [0]. At the moment, if you're a prominent man on Twitter and you offend the wrong people you'll get drowned in toxic behavior and risk losing your job over hurting someone's fee-fees.

[0] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2733071/Men-twice-ab...

Re: Play nice - How the internet is trying to design out toxic behaviour

#19

I had considered a much longer criticism of this article, but I soon realized that there was no sense in complaining about a service which is no longer " ours ." The internet of today (Internet 2.x), is little more than an advertising space , a vehicle through which users mistakenly approach as an encyclopedia housing the world's information, while in actuality, the user is product. So I'll just touch on one point in…

This is a hard problem. On the one hand ideally people would be decent and post decent speech --assuming a mature respectful body of people. On the other hand the internet is no longer an elite corner of the more or less culturally similar technically savvy people.

It has filtered down to everyone and gives everyone a voice. It gives completely opposing passionate views a platform. It gives troublemakers a platform. This diffusion and permeation of the medium has given rise to this problem.

So, to make it more useful bearable you go the FB way and do a one to one real identity mapping to remove pseudonymity (to bring reputation to bear) or you use moderators (people or software) and then decide whether people can set their filtering (show dead) or you set the filter for them (where the default is sanitized)

Either way, for commercial viability (i.e. advertising) it will behoove most sites with reputational concerns, to modify commenters' behavior in line with what society expects. Necessarily this will mean lower case censorship.

Re: Play nice - How the internet is trying to design out toxic behaviour

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>You f\ king w\ \ re, I'm going to ra\ e you, and kill your family and pet, and tort\* you till you beg for mercy, and I'm going to feed your pieces to your dogs, if you dare talk anything on this issue again. As you see, this works both ways. Above, it should have been clear I was clearly using threatening language for elucidation process. And yet, something _must_ have 'jumped' in you. Even if a little bit. Even a…

I've heard worse from a pull request on an open source project.

That's not great though, is it? Do you think this might discourage people who don't like death threats from getting involved in open source?
Post reply on HN