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TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

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Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#171

Post by c0ur7n3y »

TheLogothete wrote: post #140
Silhouette wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "negotiations must be secret to work" principle seems an odd argument to make. In the UK, for example, our national laws go through several stages of development in Parliament. Over the course of many months or years there will often be thousands of comments contributed by MPs, Lords, civil servants, independent subject matter experts, special interest groups, and the general public. There are no draconian restr…

You are comparing domestic and international legislation...

What is international legislation?

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#172

Post by persusta »

logfromblammo wrote: post #135
IanCal wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A democracy where the demos aren't allowed to read the treaties before they are ratified, what a ridiculous perversion of a notion that is. That would be ridiculous, but TTIP will be published when people agree on what it should be, then it'll be voted on. See here: http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/about-ttip/pr... When you think "X is ridiculous" consider that maybe X is not actually true.

As an American, I am very familiar with the feeling of disenfranchisement I get every elections cycle. The two major parties field a wide variety of candidates, and methodically weed out all of the ones for which I have even an inkling of affinity. In the end, I am left with a choice between the stupid douche and the turd sandwich. I still technically have a choice, but my options have been severely curtailed, down t…

That was a glorious post :)

> dung beetles 1.8m long, who have absolutely zero understanding about why we humans don't just squeal with delight and scarf down the poop

You know how they say "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", right?

The next level of understanding is that the aphorism has it backwards.

Instead, it should say something like: "Do attribute to malice that which looks like stupidity and is harmful to the people's interests". That would be accurate.

It's not that they don't understand what they're doing. You don't get to be a high-ranking politician by being stupid, let alone one of the people telling Congressmen how many minutes they're graciously allowed to look at TTIP..

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#173

Post by AnAfrican »

dragonwriter wrote: post #160
tptacek wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's the least charitable way to frame it. A more accurate way to frame it: * The United States Congress does not really get line-item veto on giant international trade agreements that affect dozens of countries, all of whom also must ratify the treaty. * Trade promotion authority is simply the authorization for the administration to negotiate the treaty. * By the time TPP is ratified by Congress at the end o…

> The United States Congress does not really get line-item veto on giant international trade agreements that affect dozens of countries, all of whom also must ratify the treaty. Its not a treaty. If it were a treaty, it would have to be ratified by a 2/3 vote in the Senate, and could, indeed, not be modified on a line-item level. What is put before Congress is a regular US law, not a treaty ratification, that needs a…

> The US Congress does, really, have line-item authority over regular US laws.

I don't think legality was the issue. The issue is that there are dozens of countries that need to vote on the same exact text for it to have an effect.

Surely the US Congress could modify it but then the other players will at best ratify a different version and at worse change items here and there themselves.

In both cases, what you get is not an international trade agrement. You may as well vote "no" or not even try to negotiate a deal.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#174

Post by mikecb »

dragonwriter wrote: post #160
tptacek wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's the least charitable way to frame it. A more accurate way to frame it: * The United States Congress does not really get line-item veto on giant international trade agreements that affect dozens of countries, all of whom also must ratify the treaty. * Trade promotion authority is simply the authorization for the administration to negotiate the treaty. * By the time TPP is ratified by Congress at the end o…

> The United States Congress does not really get line-item veto on giant international trade agreements that affect dozens of countries, all of whom also must ratify the treaty. Its not a treaty. If it were a treaty, it would have to be ratified by a 2/3 vote in the Senate, and could, indeed, not be modified on a line-item level. What is put before Congress is a regular US law, not a treaty ratification, that needs a…

> The US Congress does, really, have line-item authority over regular US laws.

Except that, in this case, only if they first vote to change their own rules, which were set when TPA was passed. So they dig themselves a small hole, which they can jump out of without help. Nothing unconstitutional about that. Congressional-Executive Agreements are a pragmatic solution to a coordination problem, using constitutionally provided tools to solve a problem whose complexity was not envisaged by the authors.

Fun fact: the U.S. avoids entering into treaties which override our laws, despite explicit constitutional language which says that they would. Best to change laws by statute, so everyone is clear, and everyone doesn't have to do a bunch of supremacy analysis. We'll even pass implementing legislation for treaties that in other nations are self-executing.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#175

Post by Silhouette »

mason240 wrote: post #168
Silhouette wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to the other replies, there are two areas where TTIP is particularly controversial. One such area is that the TTIP might include provisions that are broadly worded and have unintended (or "actually intended but they'd never admit to it") side effects. For example, if businesses in foreign countries gained new rights to sue national governments if the governments act in a way that costs those businesses revenue…

>For example, if businesses in foreign countries gained new rights to sue national governments if the governments act in a way that costs those businesses revenue, That is completely untrue.

Maybe it is. The trouble is, we know that there is a credible threat of international agreements being used to subvert previous national positions in general, but we don't know what the real proposed wording says in specific areas of this particular agreement. It's impossible to have a rational debate on the subject under these conditions.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#176

Post by Silhouette »

dragonwriter wrote: post #169
Silhouette wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "negotiations must be secret to work" principle seems an odd argument to make. In the UK, for example, our national laws go through several stages of development in Parliament. Over the course of many months or years there will often be thousands of comments contributed by MPs, Lords, civil servants, independent subject matter experts, special interest groups, and the general public. There are no draconian restr…

TTIP -- and many corporate-backed international trade agreements -- are deliberately designed to use the excuse of "international negotiations" to get concessions from multiple states that wouldn't survive scrutiny through the legislative process in many of the target states, so legislators in all the states can use the "we don't really want this bit, but its necessary because the rest of the agreement is good, and w…

No doubt we will be hearing much more of this in the UK over the next few months, given that EU rules have frequently been used as an excuse in a similar fashion. It's one of the arguments in favour of the UK leaving.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm a little surprised that the out campaign hasn't made more of TTIP itself as a textbook example of the democratic deficit they complain about. Various people in reply have pointed out that the current UK administration would seem likely to support a similar trade deal with the US directly anyway and in practice it may be other EU states putting the brakes on parts of TTIP, so possibly raising the issue would backfire.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#177

Post by Silhouette »

TheLogothete wrote: post #140
Silhouette wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "negotiations must be secret to work" principle seems an odd argument to make. In the UK, for example, our national laws go through several stages of development in Parliament. Over the course of many months or years there will often be thousands of comments contributed by MPs, Lords, civil servants, independent subject matter experts, special interest groups, and the general public. There are no draconian restr…

You are comparing domestic and international legislation...

No, I'm demonstrating that if an entire programme of complex proposals can routinely become law after open debate among thousands of participants with often conflicting views and preferences, the idea that a single trade agreement can't be hammered out without resorting to secrecy and subterfuge by a small group of mostly unidentified participants is absurd.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#178

Post by dragonwriter »

Silhouette wrote: post #176
dragonwriter wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TTIP -- and many corporate-backed international trade agreements -- are deliberately designed to use the excuse of "international negotiations" to get concessions from multiple states that wouldn't survive scrutiny through the legislative process in many of the target states, so legislators in all the states can use the "we don't really want this bit, but its necessary because the rest of the agreement is good, and w…

No doubt we will be hearing much more of this in the UK over the next few months, given that EU rules have frequently been used as an excuse in a similar fashion. It's one of the arguments in favour of the UK leaving. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm a little surprised that the out campaign hasn't made more of TTIP itself as a textbook example of the democratic deficit they complain about. Various people in reply hav…

> No doubt we will be hearing much more of this in the UK over the next few months, given that EU rules have frequently been used as an excuse in a similar fashion.

Perhaps to some extent (and, being a citizen of neither the UK nor any other EU state, I really don't have much invested in the Brexit debate), though the situation with the EU -- which has directly accountable organs and many of the same kinds of accountability and transparency provisions that are common in national government -- seems different (in general, more like the US federal/state situation, where overlapping powers mean that there are multiple levels at which an interested party can attempt to achieve the same kind of goal and the can, to an extent, forum-shop for the most friendly authority, but still be subject to the same general type of exposure through the legislative process, even if the details are different at different levels.)

There's probably also an argument that without the EU, more of Britain's affairs would be subject to topic-specific, specially-negotiated-through-opaque-process, deals.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#179

Post by mason240 »

Silhouette wrote: post #175
mason240 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For example, if businesses in foreign countries gained new rights to sue national governments if the governments act in a way that costs those businesses revenue, That is completely untrue.

Maybe it is. The trouble is, we know that there is a credible threat of international agreements being used to subvert previous national positions in general, but we don't know what the real proposed wording says in specific areas of this particular agreement. It's impossible to have a rational debate on the subject under these conditions.

It is untrue.

A businesses in foreign countries CAN sue a national governments if pass protectionist regulations that favor domestic businesses.

For example: The US can pass environmental regulations blocking all logging on Federally owned land. They can not pass regulations that only allow US-based companies to log on Federally owned land. If they did, then foreign companies could sue for being excluded.

>It's impossible to have a rational debate on the subject

With all the FUD being spread around, I completely agree.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#180

Post by dalke »

TheLogothete wrote: post #167
dalke wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> taking things out of context Who gets to establish the context in the first place? I would rather have naive Carter than condescending Kissinger represent me.

Perhaps your opinion will change when you try to negotiate something of significance, on a large scale.

Perhaps you would like to answer my question rather than make a snide remark about President Carver?
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