TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret • Hacker News Board

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#161

Post by wfo » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 4:58 PM UTC

TheLogothete wrote: post #153

wfo wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they had to negotiate in public, they would no longer be able to argue this way, you are correct. They would also be unable to make concessions and compromises which are bad for the voting citizens of the country. And they would have to be clear about what their policy objectives are. You keep saying "but... but... it would be different from how it is now!" all over this thread (and are frequently rude and condesc…

No, this is not what I am saying. I'm saying that you have unrealistic expectations. You expect the general populous, the media and the opportunistic politicians to act in a perfectly rational way. In this world of yours, taking things out of context, twisting them, playing on people's emotions, narcissism and fear cannot block the ALMIGHTY logic. Taking the condescending approach is much saner than the alternative w…

If you don't treat people with respect in a discussion they won't respect you. If you act childish as you have people will treat you like a child, as we have.

The community's general response to you has been very kind considering how you are acting, I think to its credit.

I have of course said nothing of the sort about rational actions and neither has anyone here. I expect nothing of the sort from any of those groups, of course, and neither does anyone. It must be convenient to be able to tell everyone you disagree with what they are thinking and then argue against the position you've invented. What you've done is typically called a "straw man" and is generally associated with arguing in bad faith.

It seems you've decided you have the answer (and surprise, it's the status quo) and anyone who disagrees with you is naive and stupid, so there isn't much point in continuing this discussion for either of us.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#162

Post by bsder » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 5:00 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #151

bediger4000 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It worked almost like that in the USA with the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Text of the TPP totally kept secret, even from the US Senate and House. Before our "representatives" got a chance to read the treaty, someone forced a vote on trade authority. Now, there's a short period to read a long treaty, which is being changed by the "legal scrub" process, and there's one opportunity to vote on it, no debate on the provis…

Well, that's the least charitable way to frame it. A more accurate way to frame it: * The United States Congress does not really get line-item veto on giant international trade agreements that affect dozens of countries, all of whom also must ratify the treaty. * Trade promotion authority is simply the authorization for the administration to negotiate the treaty. * By the time TPP is ratified by Congress at the end o…

> My real objection to US concern over TPP is that TPP has minimal impact on US domestic law.

That is a mischaracterization. There is plenty in the TPP that sucks if you are a citizen of the US as opposed to a corporation.

Many people in the US are trying desperately to stop the TPP. We simply don't have a lot of voice.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#163

Post by wfo » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

TheLogothete wrote: post #155

wfo wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you've described is the case about any law or policy. And yet people debate them. Details of them. On the floor of congress, around the dinner table, on talk radio, on TV news, all the time. In public. And people don't whine and cry and complain about how mean voters are. Why should the corporate policymakers who write the TPP/TPIP get a special shield? Are they particularly sensitive and fragile as a class? Or…

Really? People debate the negotiation of international treaties? Can you point 2 or 3, please, since my memory is not what it used to be.

Again -- "People currently do not do this, ergo they should not" is not an argument.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#164

Post by persusta » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #54

germanier wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to make one thing clear: Before the treaty comes into force it needs to be voted on by the Euroepan parliament and national parliaments. Before the votes the treaty will be published. What is a highly guarded secret are the current drafts , not the final agreement. It's actually not really different from how most laws are written, especially those proposed by the government. While those are in the drafting phase…

That doesn't make me feel any better. This treaty and the debate around it have become very public, and continuing to deal in private where even lawmakers are restricted from seeing it can be absolutely nothing other than trying to avoid controversy and public debate. By the time this is in its final form, many countries (like the US) would have basically already voted for approval, meaning a public debate will be to…

> continuing to deal in private where even lawmakers are restricted from seeing it can be absolutely nothing other than trying to avoid controversy and public debate

Indeed, they just don't want us little folks to disturb their dealings.

They say it's a free trade deal of sorts, but actual free trade could be arranged overnight: just stop intervening in trade, and it will be free.

I get the feeling that the tone on HN has changed a bit. Are intelligent people finally waking up to doubt their "representatives'" or governments' good intentions?

It's difficult to see how they could make it any clearer that they're working against our interests. Going full police state on us would do it, but there's not much room in between.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#165

Post by RodericDay » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

TheLogothete wrote: post #157

dalke wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He probably didn't say that. As http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/04/universe-einstein/ points out, the original saying was attributed to a "great astronomer", then followed by "To-day we know that this statement is not quite correct. Einstein has proved that the universe is limited." These later got merged. In any case, you are making a fallacious argument from authority. Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arg…

In fact, I don't care that Einstein told it. Or didn't. I quoted it because it sums my thesis pretty well. People are very, very stupid. You cannot count on them not being swayed by some pretty words and blowing the whole treaty out of the water with some misguided protests. Perhaps if you frequent HN, you don't know how stupid people are, because you only talk to the the smartest 10%.

Are you one of these "Dark Enlightenment" people who want to go back to unvarnished rule by an elite and stuff like that?

People being stupid (short-sighted, narrow-minded, self-centered, ignorant) includes people in power. If you're not a fan of democracy, you should just say so rather than dance around it.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#166

Post by mason240 » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 5:08 PM UTC

abpavel wrote: post #4

It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to the full text of 600 pages for 2 hours every thursday, accompanied by two security guards beside you at all times, behind closed doors, after the metal detector where you have leave all your electronics and recording devices behind. Oh, and you're not allowed t…

What's frightening is the amount of ignorant fearmongering on issue.

It's embarrassing that even this site has succumbed to it.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#167

Post by TheLogothete » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 5:10 PM UTC

dalke wrote: post #158

TheLogothete wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is not what I am saying. I'm saying that you have unrealistic expectations. You expect the general populous, the media and the opportunistic politicians to act in a perfectly rational way. In this world of yours, taking things out of context, twisting them, playing on people's emotions, narcissism and fear cannot block the ALMIGHTY logic. Taking the condescending approach is much saner than the alternative w…

> taking things out of context Who gets to establish the context in the first place? I would rather have naive Carter than condescending Kissinger represent me.

Perhaps your opinion will change when you try to negotiate something of significance, on a large scale.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#168

Post by mason240 » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 5:11 PM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #117

auggierose wrote: post #10

Interesting how a whole article can be written without defining what they are writing about. What the fuck is TTIP?

To add to the other replies, there are two areas where TTIP is particularly controversial. One such area is that the TTIP might include provisions that are broadly worded and have unintended (or "actually intended but they'd never admit to it") side effects. For example, if businesses in foreign countries gained new rights to sue national governments if the governments act in a way that costs those businesses revenue…

>For example, if businesses in foreign countries gained new rights to sue national governments if the governments act in a way that costs those businesses revenue,

That is completely untrue.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#169

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 5:13 PM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #130

TheLogothete wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Make them public. Every populist party in every member state would have a wonderful time catering to tin foil hats and making everyone with half a clue miserable. This is not how negotiations work. You don't make preliminary talks public. Many of the things in those talks are outrageous and no one believes they will be in the final draft. It's how you negotiate. You ask for X, then the opposing side tells you n…

This "negotiations must be secret to work" principle seems an odd argument to make. In the UK, for example, our national laws go through several stages of development in Parliament. Over the course of many months or years there will often be thousands of comments contributed by MPs, Lords, civil servants, independent subject matter experts, special interest groups, and the general public. There are no draconian restr…

TTIP -- and many corporate-backed international trade agreements -- are deliberately designed to use the excuse of "international negotiations" to get concessions from multiple states that wouldn't survive scrutiny through the legislative process in many of the target states, so legislators in all the states can use the "we don't really want this bit, but its necessary because the rest of the agreement is good, and we can't change one jot or tittle of what has been negotiated" defense to their citizens. Its a product of the same type of corporate-government backdoor influence peddling that domestic legislative transparency provisions like sunshine and open-meeting laws are designed to prevent.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#170

Post by AnAfrican » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

542458 wrote: post #148

AnAfrican wrote: post #145

It seems like many people don't really understand how lobbies work. Corporations' interests aren't identical so they cannot be defended by one lobby. And there are lobbies defending non-corporate interests. And those can be a. quite powerful b. quite nefarious. The secrecy during negotiation is necessary because "someone soemwhere has a good reason to oppose something". The fact that there are many somewheres, someon…

> "someone soemwhere has a good reason to oppose something" Especially since TPP is (in large part) designed to prevent China steamrolling entire industries and crushing foreign economies through shear size and sketchy economic measures. If the negotiations are public China has way more time to react to the measures, either by working around them or by threatening countries until they drop out. TPP may or may not be…

I actually had internal constituencies in mind..

Goat Cheese farmers or Cab drivers have and will make hell if there's even one line that they deem unacceptable even if the whole thing could (not necessarily will) be beneficial for the whole country.

And given the populist tendencies of the media on some topics, the people will probably agree.