TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret • Hacker News Board

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#61

Post by eis » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 2:09 PM UTC

witty_username wrote: post #56

germanier wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to make one thing clear: Before the treaty comes into force it needs to be voted on by the Euroepan parliament and national parliaments. Before the votes the treaty will be published. What is a highly guarded secret are the current drafts , not the final agreement. It's actually not really different from how most laws are written, especially those proposed by the government. While those are in the drafting phase…

If the deal is done in secret, people'll complain that its secret. If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.

And the issue with that is...?

"complain" just means negative feedback which should be taken into consideration since a draft is a version which is still being worked on. Isn't that how it should really be?

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#62

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 2:09 PM UTC

witty_username wrote: post #56

germanier wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to make one thing clear: Before the treaty comes into force it needs to be voted on by the Euroepan parliament and national parliaments. Before the votes the treaty will be published. What is a highly guarded secret are the current drafts , not the final agreement. It's actually not really different from how most laws are written, especially those proposed by the government. While those are in the drafting phase…

If the deal is done in secret, people'll complain that its secret. If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.

[deleted]

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#63

Post by onetimePete » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

Assuming we could stop this- the next 'Trade Alliance Agreement' coupe would then be named HHKQ ? The only way this repetition can be broken, is by the world agreeing on taxing the hell out of every organization that can try to usurp legitimate democratic structures..

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#64

Post by zouhair » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

witty_username wrote: post #56

germanier wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to make one thing clear: Before the treaty comes into force it needs to be voted on by the Euroepan parliament and national parliaments. Before the votes the treaty will be published. What is a highly guarded secret are the current drafts , not the final agreement. It's actually not really different from how most laws are written, especially those proposed by the government. While those are in the drafting phase…

If the deal is done in secret, people'll complain that its secret. If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.

> If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.

You say this like it is something bad. That's the point of transparency.

It's like that old comic I just remembered, it depicts a guy in a ladder painting "Cofee" sign for a coffee shop and below him the owner is looking up at the typo and frowning and the painter said: "Jeez man, at least wait until it dries out!".

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#65

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 2:11 PM UTC

witty_username wrote: post #56

germanier wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to make one thing clear: Before the treaty comes into force it needs to be voted on by the Euroepan parliament and national parliaments. Before the votes the treaty will be published. What is a highly guarded secret are the current drafts , not the final agreement. It's actually not really different from how most laws are written, especially those proposed by the government. While those are in the drafting phase…

If the deal is done in secret, people'll complain that its secret. If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.

>If the deal is not done in secret, people'll complain about the draft terms before it is finalized.

Well yeah. Treaties that run against the interests of the people are supposed to be avoided, not shoe-horned through.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#66

Post by fauigerzigerk » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

rev wrote: post #52

pgnas wrote: post #29

Welcome to the New World Order, you didn't think it was gong to be a democratic order. Did you? These sweeping treaties (they are not agreements) lay the foundation of world government. yiu can be certain that nothing good will come from politicians secretly meeting to talk about a plan that no one is sharing. These treaties provide for unprecedented power to corporations to determine the goods and services to be tra…

"Foundation of the western world government" would be more accurate. There are countries that (unlike EU) cannot be forced into signing this kind of treaties: e.g. China (for any number of reasons) or Russia (it's economically insignificant, but with political and military stances clearly in disagreement with those of the West).

The EU cannot be forced into signing anything. Nor can the U.S or India be forced.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#67

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 2:14 PM UTC

IanCal wrote: post #50

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should pass an emergency law that requires all documents containing suggested content for national legislation be published in full, made available to the public via government websites (or national equivalents). Wording not published could not be included in any legislation. Anything short of that makes a mockery of the idea that we have any sort of democracy. A democracy where the demos aren't allowed to read…

> A democracy where the demos aren't allowed to read the treaties before they are ratified, what a ridiculous perversion of a notion that is. That would be ridiculous, but TTIP will be published when people agree on what it should be, then it'll be voted on. See here: http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/about-ttip/pr... When you think "X is ridiculous" consider that maybe X is not actually true.

>That would be ridiculous, but TTIP will be published when people agree on what it should be, then it'll be voted on.

And as usual with treaties in the EU system, the people will be told, "vote for this treaty, or you're a fascist."

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#68

Post by TheLogothete » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 2:15 PM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #54

germanier wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to make one thing clear: Before the treaty comes into force it needs to be voted on by the Euroepan parliament and national parliaments. Before the votes the treaty will be published. What is a highly guarded secret are the current drafts , not the final agreement. It's actually not really different from how most laws are written, especially those proposed by the government. While those are in the drafting phase…

That doesn't make me feel any better. This treaty and the debate around it have become very public, and continuing to deal in private where even lawmakers are restricted from seeing it can be absolutely nothing other than trying to avoid controversy and public debate. By the time this is in its final form, many countries (like the US) would have basically already voted for approval, meaning a public debate will be to…

Yeah. Make them public. Every populist party in every member state would have a wonderful time catering to tin foil hats and making everyone with half a clue miserable.

This is not how negotiations work. You don't make preliminary talks public. Many of the things in those talks are outrageous and no one believes they will be in the final draft. It's how you negotiate. You ask for X, then the opposing side tells you no, BUT if you manage to do Y, then we can do a scaled back version of X. You tell them no, BUT if they do X and Z, you will make Y happen. All sides make concessions and sh... stuff gets done.

Making the above process public will tie the negotiators hands.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#69

Post by cubano » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 2:15 PM UTC

vmorgulis wrote: post #55

"Representative democracy is often presented as the only form of democracy possible in mass societies. It arguably allows for efficient ruling by a sufficiently small number of people on behalf of the larger number." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy Democracy is more a form of elitism than "power to the people". It has always been like that. Another system is possible (like Futarchy or a form of…

Well don't forget the idea of direct democracy where we leverage modern IT and allow the people to vote directly on issues, eliminating the need for representatives whom are, of course, often corrupted by monied interests.

Many movements and initiatives currently exist promoting this method of government[1]

[1]http://aceproject.org/ace-en/focus/direct-democracy/citizen-...

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#70

Post by Zigurd » Thu, Feb 25, 2016, 2:16 PM UTC

vmorgulis wrote: post #55

"Representative democracy is often presented as the only form of democracy possible in mass societies. It arguably allows for efficient ruling by a sufficiently small number of people on behalf of the larger number." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy Democracy is more a form of elitism than "power to the people". It has always been like that. Another system is possible (like Futarchy or a form of…

Direct democracy or demarchy are possible alternatives. It's claimed that negotiating TPP in secret is a necessity. It's only a necessity if you at first assume agreements like TPP are even desirable. Maybe, in reality, a series of smaller agreements is just as good if not better.