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Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

nytimes.com

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Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#231

Post by stormbuilder »

nickfromseattle wrote: post #94

Between this and the on-going case with Microsoft Ireland, would anyone like to speculate on the impact to US tech companies ability to compete internationally if the US Justice Department wins? There may not be a foreign equivalent for US companies working on complex or enterprise problems. Europe is often times the second highest revenue generating region outside of the US for US tech companies. Do European busines…

Well, after the Snowden reveals, everyone was talking about it every day for more than an year.

Did that actually lead to companies choose EU providers over USA ones? Not sure, but it certainly was a factor that many considered.

Especially in areas where client data is very sensitive (like healthcare), EU companies are extremely paranoid about it.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#232

Post by ikeboy »

caf wrote: post #80
ikeboy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seagate has no special ability to recover data as far as I know. The case isn't comparable.

The All Writs Act doesn't say any thing about having a special or unique ability.

But that might affect the reasonableness of the request. If the FBI can do it with off the shelf tools, it's less reasonable to ask someone else to do it than if there's no other option.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#233

Post by ikeboy »

wongarsu wrote: post #59
ikeboy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seagate has no special ability to recover data as far as I know. The case isn't comparable.

Then let's say the FBI handled a confiscated SSD drive wrongly, and some of the communication circuits of one of the flash chips holding the data got fried as a result. Your only bet to get data off that chip is the manufacturer of the chip. Could the FBI compel them to try?

I don't think the law would differ between that case and if they found the drive that way.

If the FBI has the legal right to assistance, that shouldn't change based on whether they messed up earlier. It should depend on the situation now.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#234

Post by kelnos »

rlpb wrote: post #211
cturner wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there's a way of using software licensing to bypass the issue. Consider this. What if there was a piece of encryption software where the copyright was held in the UK (i.e. not in the US). The key thing about this encryption library: it has a special license. One of its clauses says that it may not be edited, it may only be compiled by clang, may only be distributed in the form that results from a good-fai…

A US court can order Apple to do what it likes inside US jurisdiction, including things that would normally be illegal in the US.

Citation? It seems pretty unbelievable that a US court can order someone to do something that violates US law.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#236

Post by 4ad »

Aissen wrote: post #219
4ad wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we know what can the software running on the secure enclave do exactly? If the software itself doesn't have access to the master key (a.i. can't read it directly), and if the slow authentication is inherent from running the algorithm on the chip, rather than a having been slowed down artificially, then even an update to the secure enclave would not compromise the security of the system. Do we know exactly what the…

It does not matter for the case at hand, which is FBI wanting to bruteforce the code without 10-try erase.

Yes, it does not matter for the case at hand, but it is very important in general, and it has been brought into attention up the thread.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#237

Post by studentrob »

spiralpolitik wrote: post #58
s_q_b wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's tricky. The All Writs Act clearly must have some boundaries as to reasonableness and the due process of the defendant. What Apple is being asked to do here isn't simply to unlock a phone. They're being asked to use their engineers, money, and expertise to build a tool to defeat the very encryption they developed. It's not clear the All Writs Act enables the government to simply order a search warrant recipient t…

There is also a first amendment angle in that due to the previous crypto wars code is considered speech so the act of forcing a developer to write code could be considered compelled speech.

This is a fantastic point. I hadn't heard that yet, thanks!

For the lazy, here's what I found,

Compelled speech: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/compell...

Code is free speech: http://archive.arstechnica.com/wankerdesk/2q99/freespeech-1....

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#238

Post by emergentcypher »

edraferi wrote: post #73
jrapdx3 wrote: post #65

The article describes the Justice Dept. doing exactly what has been so widely predicted on HN and elsewhere. Doesn't seem like good timing on the government's part to publicly announce the intention to seek numerous iPhone "unlockings". Rather it plays into Apple's argument about unleashing a torrent of court-ordered demands which will have adverse consequences for security. Legal minds should weigh in, but I'm think…

It makes total sense that the givernment would use it's forensic capabilities whenever the need arises. The question at hand is: "can the All Writs Act compel a company to proactively defeat its own security measures?" The answer will apply to all cases. The more important question is "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without comprom…

Howabout the question is, should Congress repeal the All Writs Act.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#239

Post by studentrob »

skc wrote: post #201

Silly question, but what would you suppose Apple would do if this were a branch of the Chinese govt asking for this?

China did try to draft a law to compel companies to create this kind of back door for their government.

President Obama told President Xi that China would not be able to do that if they wanted to do business with the US [1]

As far as I know, the iPhone still sells in China, so that law never made it through. If the US allows this to happen, you can bet China will demand the same.

[1] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-obama-china-idUSKBN0LY...

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#240

Post by 542458 »

4ad wrote: post #207
Aissen wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, Secure Enclave is updateable, even Apple said so.

Do we know what can the software running on the secure enclave do exactly? If the software itself doesn't have access to the master key (a.i. can't read it directly), and if the slow authentication is inherent from running the algorithm on the chip, rather than a having been slowed down artificially, then even an update to the secure enclave would not compromise the security of the system. Do we know exactly what the…

> if the slow authentication is inherent from running the algorithm on the chip, rather than a having been slowed down artificially

There is no known cryptographic algorithm that provides inherently increasing times. The slowdown is entirely artificial, and it is believed that an update could remove it.

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