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German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

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Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#101

Post by superuser2 »

Xylakant wrote: post #48
TheCoreh wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same was used to legitimize blanket license plate scanning Was that ever illegal? The license plates are publicly displayed and visible, and you could already put people on the field watching and manually noting the license plates down, or even put cameras and look at the footage later. The only thing that changes is the economics of making it automated, no?

In Germany any kind of data collection must be backed by a cause. So automated license plate scanning was illegal since it allows creation of movement profiles by the state, something that is very much frowned upon. Putting fixed cameras up and filming the public is not legal either in Germany - you can't have a surveillance camera pointed to public space, for example filming the boardwalk in front of your house. Whe…

> So automated license plate scanning was illegal since it allows creation of movement profiles by the state, something that is very much frowned upon.

Is this really true? My understanding is you guys do a lot of speed limit enforcement by camera.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#102

Post by Xylakant »

superuser2 wrote: post #101
Xylakant wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany any kind of data collection must be backed by a cause. So automated license plate scanning was illegal since it allows creation of movement profiles by the state, something that is very much frowned upon. Putting fixed cameras up and filming the public is not legal either in Germany - you can't have a surveillance camera pointed to public space, for example filming the boardwalk in front of your house. Whe…

> So automated license plate scanning was illegal since it allows creation of movement profiles by the state, something that is very much frowned upon. Is this really true? My understanding is you guys do a lot of speed limit enforcement by camera.

We do, but the camera only captures a picture of the speeder at the place where the violation occurs which constitutes a valid cause. So it's no usable for tracking (unless the target you're tracking is speeding through every radar trap). On top of that, once the ticket is paid the data is supposed to be deleted. (whether that really happens is yet another discussion)

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#103

Post by tomtoise »

edko wrote: post #100
scurvy wrote: post #86

Good thing the EU is now forcing US companies to keep EU customer data in the EU. You know, to prevent spying on people's data.

If a government is going to spy on me, I'd rather it be my own.

'If I'm going to be forced to eat a pile of shit for my lunch, I'd rather it be my own'

No thanks.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#104

Post by TurboHaskal »

thinkindie wrote: post #29

considered how Germans are obsessed with privacy and state surveillance (see for example cash usage vs electronic payments), let's see a country going nut in 3 2 1 ...

That will never happen. It's all posing. In my experience they are most likely obsessed with the privacy of others.

Let's not forget they are the country of the Stasi, where your own colleagues will report to your manager about your little Facebook habit, where people yell at you on the spot for not recycling properly and where landlords demand intrusive credit records before renting.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#105

Post by pluma »

mihaifm wrote: post #42

Are our operating systems so vulnerable? Even if we're talking about governments, how is it still possible for someone to 'break' into my computer without me doing anything stupid. How do they plan to install Trojans into my computer?

IIRC the predecessor was injected as malware into MITM'ed software downloads.

So if the police wants to deploy it against a suspect they first get access to their network traffic and then work from there. It was intended as an alternative to breaking and entering to deploy surveillance equipment or gain physical access to hardware.

Of course this approach has several obvious limitations (e.g. encryption) but there may be other approaches in use. That's just what I remember from when the original trojan was reported on a few years back.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#106

Post by Umn44 »

mrottenkolber wrote: post #40
brakmic wrote: post #15

I doubt they have capable programmers working for them. A few years ago the Chaos Computer Club discovered the 'predecessor' version of this State-Trojan ("Bundestrojaner"). This version was a perfect example what happens when you _want_ to have such a software but your programmers _suck_ at even most basic things (like establishing a working traffic-encryption). Here's the video (in German): https://youtu.be/zAV-hTp…

I guess you are not involved in politics? There is a lot of evidence that we should be very afraid of the state if you look at Verfassungsschutz activities. They are monitoring a lot of people who oppose policy backed by the state and there is a precedent in which “opposition members” were banned from state official jobs (teachers, ...) just a few years ago. Opposition member can mean for example being involved in an…

>There is a lot of evidence that we should be very afraid of the state if you look at Verfassungsschutz activities.

It goes way beyond that, all elites of all nations are afraid of their publics and are basically already implementing soft versions of martial law behind the scenes.

The media being complicit.

You should, the elite are locking down the planet and most people are too stupid and uninformed. Most won't believe it because it goes against belief in corporate ideology.

Science on reasoning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYmi0DLzBdQ

The (mass surveillance) by the NSA and abuse by law enforcement is just more part and parcel of state suppression of dissent against corporate interests. They're worried that the more people are going to wake up and corporate centers like the US and canada may be among those who also awaken. See this vid with Zbigniew Brzezinski, former United States National Security Advisor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7ZyJw_cHJY

Brezinski at a press conference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWTIZBCQ79g

Major powers, and imposing control over the awakened masses.

https://youtu.be/4usbR_kKCDs?t=397

Important:

http://williamblum.org/aer/read/137

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#107

Post by pluma »

antitamper wrote: post #61

What's to stop someone setting up a honey trap computer all exposed with Microspy Windows running on it, and effectively summoning these guys. I genuinely am interested in their payloads...

Nothing. Also nothing is stopping anti-virus companies from making their software detect the "Bundestrojaner" as soon as they have learned to recognize it. They have done this with the previous version, too:

https://www.avira.com/en/support-for-home-knowledgebase-deta... (2011)

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#108

Post by testerooooooo »

edko wrote: post #100
scurvy wrote: post #86

Good thing the EU is now forcing US companies to keep EU customer data in the EU. You know, to prevent spying on people's data.

If a government is going to spy on me, I'd rather it be my own.

Do you really?...

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#109

Post by DanBC »

gist wrote: post #67
Xylakant wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany any kind of data collection must be backed by a cause. So automated license plate scanning was illegal since it allows creation of movement profiles by the state, something that is very much frowned upon. Putting fixed cameras up and filming the public is not legal either in Germany - you can't have a surveillance camera pointed to public space, for example filming the boardwalk in front of your house. Whe…

> you can't have a surveillance camera pointed to public space Interesting so a business for example can't have a camera monitoring outside (or inside) the place of business for security purposes? Can they apply for an exemption and is it normally granted?

Inside a business is not a "public place", it is a place to which the public have access. Outside a business is similar, unless the camera is outside and pointing to the road or pavement.

In England if you have CCTV you're expected to register with the Information Commissioner.

https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio...

https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/cctv/

Even so, we're heavily surveilled in the UK.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#110

Post by maze-le »

germanier wrote: post #25
actionwords wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/27/angela-merkel-caught-on-hot-m... On the sidelines of a United Nations luncheon on Saturday, Merkel was caught on a hot mic pressing Zuckerberg about social media posts about the wave of Syrian refugees entering Germany, the publication reported. The Facebook CEO was overheard responding that "we need to do some work" on curtailing anti-immigrant posts about the refugee crisis. "Are you…

This does not concern mere anti-immigrant posts but those that are blatantly against long-existing German laws, such as calls for violence, incitement of the masses, trivialization the actions of the Nazi regime and so on. Those have been against Facebook's own community guidelines before but enforcement has been spotty.

Don't bother... "actionwords" is a troll account, created 2 hours ago. I am not so sure if it is a troll with political motivation or just a "for the lulz"-kind. On a side-note: it is very interesting that on HN, these kinds of trolls are way less visible than on other platforms
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