What's to stop someone setting up a honey trap computer all exposed with Microspy Windows running on it, and effectively summoning these guys.
I genuinely am interested in their payloads...
German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens
61–70 of 199 posts
Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's their usual shtick. The same was used to legitimize blanket license plate scanning (now used for speeding tickets) and data retention laws (mainly used for drug trafficking). "Life-threatening danger" my ass.
> The same was used to legitimize blanket license plate scanning Was that ever illegal? The license plates are publicly displayed and visible, and you could already put people on the field watching and manually noting the license plates down, or even put cameras and look at the footage later. The only thing that changes is the economics of making it automated, no?
But then the process of something becoming automated can be a pretty deciding factor. Say a policeman overheard you talking about something that is illegal in public, and decides to investigate. Fine and dandy. Say the government mounts microphones in all public places, and does sophisticated speech recognition on it to find people talking about illegal things. In principle, that is very similar to a policeman overhearing a conversation, in scope, it isn't. That capability opens up terrifying possibilities.
Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens
#63Relevant: > According to a 2008 decision by the German Constitutional Court, remote access to a citizen's computer is permissible only if there is life-threatening danger or suspicion of criminal activity against the state.
Whenever I read "crimes against the state" I get scared about the intentions of those in a position to determine what falls into this category
Well, in germany that usually is meant to be "Verbrechen gehen die freiheitlich demokratische Grundordnung", that is anything that tries to overthrow the order of the state or the immutable paragraphs of the constitution. The problem is more that the restriction to crimes against the state gets lifted. The definition is actually fairly strict.
Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens
#64considered how Germans are obsessed with privacy and state surveillance (see for example cash usage vs electronic payments), let's see a country going nut in 3 2 1 ...
You have a bit too positive image of us ;) Yes, it will spark discussions again, and certainly be tested in front of our highest courts, and probably fail in some aspects and send back to the drawing boards again after a few years, but I don't expect that much "outrage", at least as long as it remains a tool for few specialized cases.
The constitutional court is expected to rule on this in April based on an older complaint which makes it even more egregious that they start using it now.
Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
I guess you are not involved in politics? There is a lot of evidence that we should be very afraid of the state if you look at Verfassungsschutz activities. They are monitoring a lot of people who oppose policy backed by the state and there is a precedent in which “opposition members” were banned from state official jobs (teachers, ...) just a few years ago. Opposition member can mean for example being involved in an…
And not just a few years ago, this is an ongoing issue. For instance, a government minister in Hessen tries to ensure that this politician from AfD (in opposition to the ruling CDU/SDP coalition) should not be able to work as a teacher. http://www.focus.de/politik/videos/er-hatte-sport-und-geschi...
You're conveniently letting out the part about the racist remarks which are the actual cause. I'm all in favor of not letting racists teach children.
Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's their usual shtick. The same was used to legitimize blanket license plate scanning (now used for speeding tickets) and data retention laws (mainly used for drug trafficking). "Life-threatening danger" my ass.
> The same was used to legitimize blanket license plate scanning Was that ever illegal? The license plates are publicly displayed and visible, and you could already put people on the field watching and manually noting the license plates down, or even put cameras and look at the footage later. The only thing that changes is the economics of making it automated, no?
>Was that ever illegal? The license plates are publicly displayed and visible
Well, you are also publicly visible when you walk around the town, but police following you around all the time without a reason/warrant is illegal (at least that's the case in my country, it should be in yours too if it's not).
Second, something being "publicly displayed" and "allowed to be scanned automatically by government (or another party), catalogued and stored for millions of people" is not the same thing.
>The only thing that changes is the economics of making it automated, no?
No, it's the "mass surveillance of citizens whereabouts" that's the illegal part that is/should be illegal. Even if it was to be performed manually by people.
Now, one could say that it's just the "economics" that changes, but beyond that, the economics are also an enabler. If it wasn't for automated scanning it would impractical to even do it, so what changes is the very possibility of this happening.
One didn't need to make non-automated license plate scanning illegal because it wasn't practical to perform it in the first place.
Sure, it could happen at low scale, with "spies" manually writing e.g. all the plates parked in an area, or whenever a particular car passes from a particular street. But it wasn't practical or widespread enough to make sense to single out and ban as a practice. The law is not an absolute affair.
Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The same was used to legitimize blanket license plate scanning Was that ever illegal? The license plates are publicly displayed and visible, and you could already put people on the field watching and manually noting the license plates down, or even put cameras and look at the footage later. The only thing that changes is the economics of making it automated, no?
In Germany any kind of data collection must be backed by a cause. So automated license plate scanning was illegal since it allows creation of movement profiles by the state, something that is very much frowned upon. Putting fixed cameras up and filming the public is not legal either in Germany - you can't have a surveillance camera pointed to public space, for example filming the boardwalk in front of your house. Whe…
> you can't have a surveillance camera pointed to public space
Interesting so a business for example can't have a camera monitoring outside (or inside) the place of business for security purposes? Can they apply for an exemption and is it normally granted?
Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
And not just a few years ago, this is an ongoing issue. For instance, a government minister in Hessen tries to ensure that this politician from AfD (in opposition to the ruling CDU/SDP coalition) should not be able to work as a teacher. http://www.focus.de/politik/videos/er-hatte-sport-und-geschi...
You're conveniently letting out the part about the racist remarks which are the actual cause. I'm all in favor of not letting racists teach children.
Well, very likely the same can be said about anti-nuclear protesters: they're not excluded for "political reasons", but for criminal actions which are "actual cause". Or so someone says. (Though in the case of this teacher, it looks like no crime could be cooked up). With AfD I've heard of trying to use just the political alignment as a reason (couldn't find the link just now).
Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
And not just a few years ago, this is an ongoing issue. For instance, a government minister in Hessen tries to ensure that this politician from AfD (in opposition to the ruling CDU/SDP coalition) should not be able to work as a teacher. http://www.focus.de/politik/videos/er-hatte-sport-und-geschi...
You're conveniently letting out the part about the racist remarks which are the actual cause. I'm all in favor of not letting racists teach children.
And who gets to decide who is a racist?
Due process is there for a reason.
Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens
#70Are we headed for civil war in cyber space? This is the kind of bs that starts to wake people up.
No, hunger and intolerable cruelty is what wake people up.