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Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

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Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#31

Post by solipsism »

mojuba wrote: post #27
solipsism wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite an edge case to be both a slave in 18th century America and in the software development industry, which is what we're talking about here.

I was responding to this: > a better path toward that goal, in my opinion, is to encourage people to seek the help necessary to deal with stressors There is almost always a flip side to your personal stress: some dissonance, disharmony in the outside world. Some of those who feel stressed go out and fight for harmony in the world, and they lose. That's what we are talking about here.

This is meaningless. Stress is a natural state. Human lives have forever been stressful, because stress exists for a purpose. To set out to eliminate all "dissonances" and "disharmonies" is a fool's errand.

The wisest people from vastly different cultures -- from Nietzsche who I quote above to the Buddha -- have recognized that suffering is inevitable. Sure, some stressors can be dealt with. But others can't.

If someone is having trouble coping, and he's a software developer in a developed country who has free time to write blogs, the best advice to that person is to seek help learning how to cope.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#32

Post by pmarreck »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #28
pmarreck wrote: post #2

While these were all tragic, they are hardly representative. Do you know how when you ride a bicycle and look off to one side, you tend to steer towards that side, involuntarily? Stop being obsessed with oppression, depression and suicide. Not to downplay them, but you have free will (oh, debatable, sure, but it's better for happiness to just believe you do) and can act, and can steer your consciousness towards more…

Oh, I totally agree with you. Evidence is on your side as well. My Christian buddies trying to get people to live more righteously have a nice saying for it: Garbage In, Garbage Out. I gave them a pun Goodness In, Goodness Out for end result. Idea being you have to feed your brain the kinds of things it can build on to achieve the result you want. Anyway, the effect has its basis in intuition: our unconscious or semi…

Yep.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

Learned about it in Psych.

I'm so happy I was a Psych major. (and I'm a programmer now!) It was so general and yet so awesome that it was like getting +1 in every RPG stat for life.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#33

Post by mrottenkolber »

njharman wrote: post #26
mrottenkolber wrote: post #18

I find the notion that humans can be more or less inhumane troubling. Its really just arbitrary segregation whose only use I can imagine is to dehumanize persons. Same goes for calling people sociopaths etc. Everybody does what they think is best, for them and for the world. Somebody in politics is way stupider than you and thus ruins the world... that's an opinion, and an understandable one too. But is it productive…

> find the notion that humans can be more or less inhumane troubling You aren't going to "fix" human nature. At least not without eugenics and execution of those who don't think "right". Saying we should be humane and cooperate with each other doesn't cut it. It's as much a pipe dream as anarchism. Although I agree with that philosophy it's never gonna work with humans. High number of sociopaths, prison experiments,…

What do you mean by fix? I am talking about improving the situation. History has proven this is very well possible. Women can vote now. Slaves in America became rare. There is a notion of human and international rights, which is quite new. Witches aren't burnt, gay sex doesn't get you killed. Do you think that the status-quo is as good as we can do? I don't thin so.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#34

Post by mojuba »

solipsism wrote: post #31
mojuba wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was responding to this: > a better path toward that goal, in my opinion, is to encourage people to seek the help necessary to deal with stressors There is almost always a flip side to your personal stress: some dissonance, disharmony in the outside world. Some of those who feel stressed go out and fight for harmony in the world, and they lose. That's what we are talking about here.

This is meaningless. Stress is a natural state. Human lives have forever been stressful, because stress exists for a purpose. To set out to eliminate all "dissonances" and "disharmonies" is a fool's errand. The wisest people from vastly different cultures -- from Nietzsche who I quote above to the Buddha -- have recognized that suffering is inevitable. Sure, some stressors can be dealt with. But others can't. If some…

By "developed" countries you mean those deeply indebted societies driven by the fear of losing a job? Where software managers and founders push to the limits because they have the leverage? Of course you can talk to a therapist or read some Nietsche (or some Buddhism) and your problems will go away.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#35

Post by mojuba »

crdoconnor wrote: post #15
cushychicken wrote: post #3

Reading the precursor essay, "Living in the Age of Software Fuckery" begs a pretty big question: if the author has such a clear picture of the structural flaws inherent in software development organizations, why isn't he out there starting his own firm and hiring all of these mistreated, misunderstood developers and making a killing off of all of their limitless creativity?

>Why isn't he out there starting his own firm Probably because access to capital, connections, luck and the ability to sell are more critical than good ideas. You don't think that Uber could have been you if you'd 'just written a ride sharing app' in 2008 do you? :)

It has become almost given that if you are not a (co)founder of a startup yet then something is wrong with you.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#36

Post by erik_landerholm »

Smudge wrote: post #17
erik_landerholm wrote: post #14

Yes being a startup founder is stressful. Before joining YC I ran through my 401k, my cofounder almost lost his house and we had two little kids each at the time. To join YC we left our wives and kids in Portland and moved into an office next to drug dealers (YC only gave 5k per founder at that time), etc, etc. Not everyone can handle stress like that...I'm not sure I could ever do that again. You have to know what y…

There's a survivorship bias in what you describe. How many others in your position, who perhaps thought they knew what they could handle, did end up losing their houses, and/or racked up years and years of debt on a gamble that didn't end up paying off? It's something we don't really talk about in this industry, but I suspect it happens more often than the success stories.

If I had known what I was going to go through I'm not sure I would of done it, but it's also my personality to never give up. I always keep looking for a way through, around or out of problems. So, I always feel like I'll be OK. I might not get the optimal solution, but i can deal with most situations. Now....what happened to Aaron and Turing...to me that's different.

Our startup wasn't really successful. We didn't return money to our investors. We were 'bought' by another company, but that was just a talent acquisition. Since then we have been successful at the new company...again...because of nothing more than we will stick to what we believe is right longer than others. I'm able to withstand a lot of resistance and I only take a few people's opinions seriously. So other people not liking me or not wanting to be apart of what we are trying to do has little effect on me. Not everyone is like that. If you aren't this startup/running companies is not something you should indulge in...the stresses will break you down.

It's really important to have a people you work with that you can rely on and commiserate with. Without that it could get to anyone, save a true psychopath.

Paul has given reasons for why he didn't want to invest in single cofounders, but I'm not sure he ever articulated it that way. For me having a partner made this experience bearable. It wasn't what I would call fun though.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#37

Post by solipsism »

mojuba wrote: post #34
solipsism wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is meaningless. Stress is a natural state. Human lives have forever been stressful, because stress exists for a purpose. To set out to eliminate all "dissonances" and "disharmonies" is a fool's errand. The wisest people from vastly different cultures -- from Nietzsche who I quote above to the Buddha -- have recognized that suffering is inevitable. Sure, some stressors can be dealt with. But others can't. If some…

By "developed" countries you mean those deeply indebted societies driven by the fear of losing a job? Where software managers and founders push to the limits because they have the leverage? Of course you can talk to a therapist or read some Nietsche (or some Buddhism) and your problems will go away.

I said you learn to cope with problems, not that they go away. I also never said there aren't ways to eliminate stressors. The point is that "go out and do something instead of whining about it in a blog" is a shitty thing to say to someone you don't know who is crying for help, and not helpful. "Consider seeing a therapist," who might not only teach you to cope but also help you change things that can be changed, is much more wise.
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