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Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

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Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#21
While I applaud any effort to create a better work and living environment, I am not sure that the article is that accurate in one of its premises that the software industry has a high or even higher suicide rate then any other industry, for example:

http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/01/06/top-11-professions-w...

Absolutely, we should be doing all we can to address depression and unhealthy stress and to attempt to eliminate all contributory factors. So in general terms I support this article but it is perhaps a bit sensationalist.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#22
It's a solvable problem with a very subjective solution.

For me. After working at stock exchanges and whatnot; I decided that every day I'd walk through that door at 9am with three fucks in my register and walk out at 5 with three of them still there.

Burnouts aren't worth it. Salary difference of x% is dealth by switching jobs if needed.

We are in demand. Get at least normal rest every day out of it. Or you'll hate what you love and live to do.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#23
post #7

This article more seemed to suggest that extremely intelligent people are more likely to get into trouble than any apparent root cause to me. In Schwartz and Turing's case, while the law was misguided, it compounded their stressors and took their lives. In the one fellows case he apparently broke into someone's house wasted and was arrested. And there was the guy announcing his suicide on twitter (that might be the s…

To paraphrase Nietzsche, to live is to experience stressors. The changes you're talking about might (might!) lower the number of stressors in people's lives and thus have an overall positive impact on mental health, but a better path toward that goal, in my opinion, is to encourage people to seek the help necessary to deal with stressors. Edit: you did mention making mental healthcare accessible, but it wasn't the br…

Let's take an edge case: you are a slave in America, 18th century. Here, some antidepressants and some free psychotherapy time for you. Happier now?

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#24
I emphatize with depression on a deep level. The population of software developers is so large that just picking a few known cases of depression makes for an argument of unknown statistical strength.

One thing is known - software development is hard, potentially stressfull with recurring pathologies that really don't have any known remedies except 'dedicated craftmanship'.

On the other hand, a few of the examples pinpointed to a cruel and unkind society as the root cause of depressive issues - system issued chemical horrors in the case of Alan Turing and zealous politically ambitious ptosecutor in the case of Schwartz.

The issue is then not that the software shop cannot function always as the surrogate family but that systems should not treat individuals cruelly.

Which is an admirable dream - but goes really weirdly with antagonizing with liberal politics. Anarchism would not lead to a kinder society with the human species as it is.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#25
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To paraphrase Nietzsche, to live is to experience stressors. The changes you're talking about might (might!) lower the number of stressors in people's lives and thus have an overall positive impact on mental health, but a better path toward that goal, in my opinion, is to encourage people to seek the help necessary to deal with stressors. Edit: you did mention making mental healthcare accessible, but it wasn't the br…

Let's take an edge case: you are a slave in America, 18th century. Here, some antidepressants and some free psychotherapy time for you. Happier now?

Quite an edge case to be both a slave in 18th century America and in the software development industry, which is what we're talking about here.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#26

I find the notion that humans can be more or less inhumane troubling. Its really just arbitrary segregation whose only use I can imagine is to dehumanize persons. Same goes for calling people sociopaths etc. Everybody does what they think is best, for them and for the world. Somebody in politics is way stupider than you and thus ruins the world... that's an opinion, and an understandable one too. But is it productive…

> find the notion that humans can be more or less inhumane troubling

You aren't going to "fix" human nature. At least not without eugenics and execution of those who don't think "right". Saying we should be humane and cooperate with each other doesn't cut it. It's as much a pipe dream as anarchism. Although I agree with that philosophy it's never gonna work with humans. High number of sociopaths, prison experiments, the us vs attitude that permeates must all human social constructs, preponderance of human history is the proof. Humans are just too shitty to have nice things.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take an edge case: you are a slave in America, 18th century. Here, some antidepressants and some free psychotherapy time for you. Happier now?

Quite an edge case to be both a slave in 18th century America and in the software development industry, which is what we're talking about here.

I was responding to this:

> a better path toward that goal, in my opinion, is to encourage people to seek the help necessary to deal with stressors

There is almost always a flip side to your personal stress: some dissonance, disharmony in the outside world. Some of those who feel stressed go out and fight for harmony in the world, and they lose. That's what we are talking about here.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#28
post #2

While these were all tragic, they are hardly representative. Do you know how when you ride a bicycle and look off to one side, you tend to steer towards that side, involuntarily? Stop being obsessed with oppression, depression and suicide. Not to downplay them, but you have free will (oh, debatable, sure, but it's better for happiness to just believe you do) and can act, and can steer your consciousness towards more…

Oh, I totally agree with you. Evidence is on your side as well. My Christian buddies trying to get people to live more righteously have a nice saying for it: Garbage In, Garbage Out. I gave them a pun Goodness In, Goodness Out for end result. Idea being you have to feed your brain the kinds of things it can build on to achieve the result you want.

Anyway, the effect has its basis in intuition: our unconscious or semi-consciuos mind. Intuition runs most of our thoughts, feelings, and reactions based on prior experiences and decisions. A researcher once connected this to depression when he noticed that animals put into helpless situations learned to act helpless even when the situation changed. He experimented with a sort of mental reprogramming for humans based on speculation that it was in our head in some percentage of cases. That led to cognitive therapy which cured quite a few people of depression. Its methods were quite simple: record your reactions to negative situations; identify whether you overstate the severity or pervasiveness of it; create a neutral or positive way to reframe that which isn't bullshit; take time to actually say and believe that; keep that up. Over significant period of time, habit takes over where you start coming up with less negative stuff or countering it in your head without thinking.

Random other examples. The optimism studies support that people similarly highlighting the good and margalizing the bad live longer, feel better, succeed more, and so on. They do something similar to cognitive therapy although positivity comes before accuracy. Proponents of meditation find that clearing all those thoughts out of their head for small amounts of time helps their mental state across the board. Also note that it's initially a painful process that takes work to do. Monks used to fight evil and negative thoughts by meditating on love and beautiful aspects of life. Stress management shows us even primitive tricks like smacking a wall saying "Stop!" can interrupt that thinking with a different focus area as a follow-up.

The anecdotes, behavioral science, and neuroscience all corroborate each other supporting the GIGO concept. Mental illness has a variety of effects on this but I've seen it help many with it. Techniques, effect, and length of effect varies considerably but it's rarely a "nothing will help" situation. The author could be applying such things but is hyperfocused on suicide, despair, negative thoughts, all the ways he will fail... Garbage In, Garbage Out.

What he didn't write is about all that didn't commit suicide, were kind of OK, were happy once they left the building, or rare few that didn't let others affect internal happiness. He didn't point out that some people have convinced management to tackle technical debt or do preventative work by putting it in terms they understand. We see a number in HN posts each month. He didn't show examples of software shops doing it better along with their methods in his recommendations to change structural problems he wrote on in prior essay. Didn't do that because he probably never looked for such positive counterpoints in the first place. Even the suicides are a questionable list with Aaron and Murdock being great examples of people tied to thinking & behaviors that will only screw them up. So many others fought for utilitarianism and ideals with a cut-off point that left them otherwise happy with their lives and away from B&E's.

So, if anything, this article proves nothing about the effect of software industry on developers or suicide. Instead, it tells us a lot about how one person thinks. It also confirms that focusing only on negative aspects of life will lead to depression and possibly suicide. It implies people should do the opposite. Additionally, they might consider putting a lot of effort into finding and moving into a better work environment.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#29
Just like I don't believe violent video games create homocidal sociopaths. I don't think software industry creates depressives.

We are born that way. I would be depressive no matter what I worked in. Probably even if I was trust fund baby and didn't have a care in the world. Which, of course, never is true. My depression makes my life stressful, makes it lonely, makes it "hard" to live. Depression is the source, the root cause, the disease. Not a symptom. [to be clear the word depression is broadly used. You can be depressed (and I imagine everyone has been at one point or another and this is caused by external factors, say death of love ones) without suffering depression. Big D Depression is like a phobia, in that it is irrational. One is depressed for NO reason. None. Not a hidden one, or misunderstood, etc. (I mean no external reason, it's physically probably brain chemistry). And there may be other kinds of Big D depression. But this is the one I'm an expert on. And the problem is with me, not you/inustry/society. Although, you can help with symptoms such as not firing me after spending a week in bed not answering phone.

Also, using Turing as evidence of author's point about Software Industry is disingenuous.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#30
If you are feeling this sad, look up a ketamine clinic near you and get some infusions going.

I haven't myself, but I have heard amazing turnaround stories.

If you are this depressed, your brain has atrophied, your dendrites look like deciduous trees in winter.

After you get infused, and ketamine activates the mTOR pathway and you feel a sense of joy again, you will be really grateful you didn't kill yourself.

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