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Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

theatlantic.com

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Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#131

Post by justincormack »

ptaipale wrote: post #30
justincormack wrote: post #20

The poster recommended listening to "their media" for a balanced view on Saudi Arabia, which is nonsense in a country without a free press. And also suggested that the alternative to Saudi Arabia was Iran. Looked like a typical paid commenter.

I think there is a common fallacy that people who you disagree with need to be paid by someone, otherwise they wouldn't be as they are. I disagree with the poster but I'll grant that he may completely believe what he says and doesn't need to be paid in any way. The same phenomenon works for pro-Russia trolls, for instance. I don't think they are "paid", particularly paid with money.

Sure they may genuinely believe what they have been told, but repressive regimes hiring commenters is pretty common now, perhaps not on hacker news.

I do not believe people have to be paid to disagree with me, that would be self centred delusion.

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#132

Post by nickbauman »

tptacek wrote: post #125
nickbauman wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we generally know what's in those pages. Seymour Hersh (multi Pulitzer winning journalist who, among other things, uncovered the Mi Lai Atrocities) broke the story that the assassination of Osama Bin Ladin was mainly an attempt by the US to cover up the deep ties between OBL and the Saudi government. http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-...

To say that Hersh's story about the OBL Killing is controversial, especially among journalists, would be understating it quite a bit. The London Review Of Books is not a conventional outlet for Hersh's investigative journalism (he's a regular at The New Yorker, which has one of the more notoriously elaborate fact checking apparatuses in the industry) and not Hersh's first choice for publishing that story.

Normally I would be more skeptical. But the assertions Hersh is making about this is so far beyond the "official" narrative, you can't seriously think someone with Hersh's reputation would just make that up?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2...

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#133

Post by JoeAltmaier »

tptacek wrote: post #129
sokoloff wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most flight training in the world is done in the US, by a wide margin. Because of that, they would probably stick out much less doing it here than trying to do it in one of the few EU airline training facilities.

Not only that, but for the plot to work, the hijackers had to start from within the US. Implanting them in the US long before the attacks made it easier for them to reliably get to their target airports the day of the attack. In a sense, the comment upthread litigates the whole idea of a "sleeper cell."

Is that the right word? Validates? mitigates?

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#134

Post by CydeWeys »

ptaipale wrote: post #64
rtpg wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the Soviet Union collapsed without a major world war right?

But I think that much of that was simply due to luck. I felt rather nervous about it at the time.

If someone like Putin had been in charge at the time, it might've gone differently, for sure.

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#135

Post by justincormack »

tome wrote: post #29
justincormack wrote: post #20

The poster recommended listening to "their media" for a balanced view on Saudi Arabia, which is nonsense in a country without a free press. And also suggested that the alternative to Saudi Arabia was Iran. Looked like a typical paid commenter.

> suggested that the alternative to Saudi Arabia was Iran So what is the alternative regional hegemon? Egypt? Turkey?

Not having one?

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#136

Post by astazangasta »

tome wrote: post #90
s_q_b wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are nine pages redacted from the 9/11 report, because they were deemed too incendiary against an ally, Saudi Arabia. I want those pages.

> I want those pages. What would you do with them? Surely you can't believe that keeping them secret protects an ally to the expense of America? Surely it's much more likely that keeping them secret protects an ally to the benefit of America.

You're asking for an act of faith in murderers, assassins and spies, people who believe that public scrutiny is a nuisance. The whole point of a democracy is that "what benefits America" must be determined by an active conversation amongst the public. The idea that a few individuals can decide what is best for our "national security" is antithetical to any notion of democracy.

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#138

Post by tptacek »

nickbauman wrote: post #132
tptacek wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say that Hersh's story about the OBL Killing is controversial, especially among journalists, would be understating it quite a bit. The London Review Of Books is not a conventional outlet for Hersh's investigative journalism (he's a regular at The New Yorker, which has one of the more notoriously elaborate fact checking apparatuses in the industry) and not Hersh's first choice for publishing that story.

Normally I would be more skeptical. But the assertions Hersh is making about this is so far beyond the "official" narrative, you can't seriously think someone with Hersh's reputation would just make that up? http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2...

Who said he made anything up? I think the conventional wisdom here is that he is just wrong.

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#139

Post by justincormack »

baliansa wrote: post #96
justincormack wrote: post #20

The poster recommended listening to "their media" for a balanced view on Saudi Arabia, which is nonsense in a country without a free press. And also suggested that the alternative to Saudi Arabia was Iran. Looked like a typical paid commenter.

Yes, I did recommend listening to "their" media. However I did not mean listen to the news, Watch the music, culture, and other forms of media, to get a sense of the "extremism exporter" being portrayed in the article, just take a look at this network ( http://telfaz11.com/en/ ). I really do not understand the reasons behind your anger, is it because of 9/11? As I said before, the Saudis have suffered way more becaus…

Sorry to suggest you are a paid commenter. I would just like you to be be able to live in a civilised country.

To quote Amnesty:

The government severely restricted freedoms of expression, association and assembly, and cracked down on dissent, arresting and imprisoning critics, including human rights defenders. Many received unfair trials before courts that failed to respect due process, including a special anti-terrorism court that handed down death sentences. New legislation effectively equated criticism of the government and other peaceful activities with terrorism. The authorities clamped down on online activism and intimidated activists and family members who reported human rights violations. Discrimination against the Shi’a minority remained entrenched; some Shi’a activists were sentenced to death and scores received lengthy prison terms. Torture of detainees was reportedly common; courts convicted defendants on the basis of torture-tainted “confessions” and sentenced others to flogging. Women faced discrimination in law and practice, and were inadequately protected against sexual and other violence despite a new law criminalizing domestic violence. The authorities detained and summarily expelled thousands of foreign migrants, returning some to countries where they were at risk of serious human rights abuses. The authorities made extensive use of the death penalty and carried out dozens of public executions.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-a...

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#140

Post by tptacek »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #133
tptacek wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but for the plot to work, the hijackers had to start from within the US. Implanting them in the US long before the attacks made it easier for them to reliably get to their target airports the day of the attack. In a sense, the comment upthread litigates the whole idea of a "sleeper cell."

Is that the right word? Validates? mitigates?

Purposefully argue or debate a position, seeking its resolution, as if before a tribunal.
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