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Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

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Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#61

Post by eklavya »

guftagu wrote: post #49
sremani wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enlightened Elite in Pakistan? Pakistan is an Islamist garrison state that needs funds from outside to prop it up. Saudis and Americans (40 Billion US alone) are the only reason Pakistan is not economically bankrupt.

don't watch so much Fox News. A vast majority of people in Pakistan are very moderate. Much of the bad shit you see about extremists and all is from a particular area of Pakistan in the north west near Afghanistan. Pakistan army has cleared out most of the extremists from there and many operations are being conducted as National Action Plan to curb terrorism and extremism.

Really, you believe all that? You should google "Hafiz Saeed" sometime. That is just one example of course and doesn't even start to sum it all up.

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#62

Post by swombat »

gdy wrote: post #59
swombat wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Russia falls apart it's a serious problem for everyone, because it won't fall apart quietly or peacefully. It might still be an improvement over its current approach - which is not falling apart, but is neither quiet nor peaceful. There's a fair bit of political analysis that suggests that Russia is for example about to test NATO by starting a war with Turkey, and that it is deliberately killing civilians in Syr…

"There's a fair bit of political analysis" You mean propaganda?

Well, as they say, the first casualty of war is truth, but there are a number of factual events that fit the narrative of Russia under Putin being willing to flex its muscle and encourage instability in its neighbour to the west while inspiring Russians to dream of days of yore when they ruled half of Europe...

There's the numerous videos and reports from organisations like Amnesty International, accusing Russia of basically doing the Assad thing of bombing the shit out of civilian populations in Syria (which is bound to cause more refugees to flee). And then the whole Turkey airspace thing. And then reports of Russian troops conducting large "training exercises" in the exact region they'd need to be to start a war with Turkey... There's the Crimea/Ukraine thing, which fit into that pattern as well.

Overall, no matter which source you read, Russia is currently spelling trouble. I was worried about Trump being elected and starting World War 3 - I'm now worried that even without Trump we might get there thanks to Putin.

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#63

Post by ptaipale »

hartpuff wrote: post #54
mirimir wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CIA and/or NSA very likely knew that the 9/11 terrorists were in the US, learning to fly airliners. Not long after 9/11, there were reports that Mossad agents (the "art students", as I recall) had been tailing the 9/11 terrorists. Almost all of whom were Saudis. But I've seen no credible reports that any of them knew what was planned. And yes, those pages might be very interesting.

> The CIA and/or NSA very likely knew that the 9/11 terrorists were in the US, learning to fly airliners. Has there ever been an explanation why the hijackers risked conspicuously attending flight schools under the noses of the US authorities, rather than, say, absolutely any other country in the world ?

>Has there ever been an explanation why the hijackers risked conspicuously attending flight schools under the noses of the US authorities, rather than, say, absolutely any other country in the world?

Because there are more flight schools in the US than anywhere else, and if you want to do some flying in US airspace, those are in the best position to teach how it works, what controls there are, how to avoid them, etc.

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#64

Post by ptaipale »

rtpg wrote: post #51
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #28

And Russia. In the harsh world of realpolitik no one cares if Venezuela falls apart, except for the Venezuelans. If Russia falls apart it's a serious problem for everyone, because it won't fall apart quietly or peacefully.

Well the Soviet Union collapsed without a major world war right?

But I think that much of that was simply due to luck. I felt rather nervous about it at the time.

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#65

Post by coldcode »

The bigger problem in the future is Iran vs Saudi Arabia. Given they are the leaders of the two major sides of Islam and rivals in the oil business some day they will start shooting at each other. The Iranians may not be a totally unified country but they have experience at war and being a single people whereas SA does not have sufficiently internal loyalty to sustain any kind of real war. The house of Saud would run away with all their money leaving the country behind, somewhat like the Kaiser did at the end of WWI.

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#66

Post by cygx »

temp wrote: post #60
salafi wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't, for the life of me, understand why people associate being a Salafi with the various terrorist groups. I have never heard a Salafi scholar promote any acts terrorism. In fact, every single high-ranking scholar in Saudi Arabia (those who call themselves Salafi), are all opposed to groups like ISIS, Al Qaida, and Al Nusra. There are dozens of audio clips on Youtube from such scholars who clearly warn the Muslim…

> I can't, for the life of me, understand why people associate being a Salafi with the various terrorist groups. In Europe, foreign-funded Salafi Imams are generally the ones that recruit local Muslims to go fight for ISIS. To give an actual example, in Bosnia the leader of the Salafi movement has been arrested for recruiting for ISIS. The Vienna Salafi movement has been found to collect money that was then forwarded…

To give an actual example, in Bosnia the leader of the Salafi movement has been arrested for recruiting for ISIS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilal_Bosni%C4%87

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#67

Post by salafi »

s_q_b wrote: post #56
salafi wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't, for the life of me, understand why people associate being a Salafi with the various terrorist groups. I have never heard a Salafi scholar promote any acts terrorism. In fact, every single high-ranking scholar in Saudi Arabia (those who call themselves Salafi), are all opposed to groups like ISIS, Al Qaida, and Al Nusra. There are dozens of audio clips on Youtube from such scholars who clearly warn the Muslim…

Salafism is a very complicated word to unpack. So yes, there are less radical elements who identify as Salafis, including the Muslim brotherhood. But although the meaning of Salafism as a historical word would take quite a bit to unpack, it's clearly referring to a particularly fast-growing form of fundamentalist Islam today. Now, as for the sermons... It is my experience that the Saudi's pray with one hand and dole…

> It is my experience that the Saudi's pray with one hand and dole out cash to terrorist groups with the other.

That makes zero sense. Why would they fund the people calling for their destruction? What exactly is your "experience?" It's just more unfounded conjecture.

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#68

Post by cygx »

salafi wrote: post #44
nabla9 wrote: post #25

Boko Haram, al-Qaida, ISIS, Ansar al-Shariah, Jund al-Khilafan, al-Nusra, ... You can backtrack basically all active jihadist groups that attack west back to to the Saudi funded ideology. Even ISIS is offshoot of Wahabbi/Salafism. The "traditional" Islamist like Brotherhood put their efforts in Arab countries. Saudis are not in control of these groups, but they are responsible for the ideology. Saudi Arabia's Curricu…

I can't, for the life of me, understand why people associate being a Salafi with the various terrorist groups. I have never heard a Salafi scholar promote any acts terrorism. In fact, every single high-ranking scholar in Saudi Arabia (those who call themselves Salafi), are all opposed to groups like ISIS, Al Qaida, and Al Nusra. There are dozens of audio clips on Youtube from such scholars who clearly warn the Muslim…

ISIS is a true product of Salafism, and we must deal with it with full transparency.

- Sheikh Adel al-Kalbani, former imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#69

Post by ptaipale »

swombat wrote: post #35
tome wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saudi Arabia is the world's only country named after its rulers How about the "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan

Jordan is mostly just known as Jordan, whereas Saudi Arabia is in fact widely known by this full name. Witness the URL difference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia

That is rather simply explained by the fact that Kingdom od Saudi Arabia doesn't cover all of geographical Arabia.

Re: Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse

#70

Post by cygx »

salafi wrote: post #67
s_q_b wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salafism is a very complicated word to unpack. So yes, there are less radical elements who identify as Salafis, including the Muslim brotherhood. But although the meaning of Salafism as a historical word would take quite a bit to unpack, it's clearly referring to a particularly fast-growing form of fundamentalist Islam today. Now, as for the sermons... It is my experience that the Saudi's pray with one hand and dole…

> It is my experience that the Saudi's pray with one hand and dole out cash to terrorist groups with the other. That makes zero sense. Why would they fund the people calling for their destruction? What exactly is your "experience?" It's just more unfounded conjecture.

What exactly is your "experience?"

Things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_High_Commission_for_Reli...

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