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Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us

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Re: Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us

#121

Post by cimbal »

itchyouch wrote: post #56
cimbal wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. The size relations of inner organs for example vary betweeen people as far as i know. That is a big hint, althought it's not a proof in itself. I want to add to that the nutritional needs within each person vary drastically during different times of year (or times of stress, even down to times of day). Athletes know this, for example, it is common to exhibit significant drops in performance during a year o…

I've observed that a lot of diets tend to have similar effects on the populations that adopt them. People speak about feeling better on Paleo. Body builders/lifters optimize macronutrient intakes for muscle gain with similar results. There's also wide consensus on how certain micronutrient deficiencies cause certain conditions. e.g. Vitamin C deficiency leads to Scurvy. Vitamin A deficiency leads to night-time blindn…

My suspicion is that most of the population does not react too strongly or fast to a suboptimal diet, hence the general softness of this topic. But maybe a certain percentage does, and i consider myself one of them. It could well be that those who do are on the brink of a deficiency, but i'm not sure about that.

My experience, and there was i time i was really into this, doing interviews with mostly young people. The results fit the assumptions of William L. Wolcott very well, that most people basically fall into 2 groups, fast and slow metabolizers. They differ significantly when it comes to digestion. One group needing more of certain minerals then the other when eating the same foods (potassium making the biggest difference as far as i remember). I remember often guessing correctly what type of water brand people would prefer based on this (chosing between 2 favourite sources, one with high potassium content. the sample size was small, but i'm really sure you can replicate this).

If this is due to genetics or due to gut microbes or both at the same time - i really don't know.

So, i think that the macro level does differ between people. That every person needs an individual mixture of nutrients to keep the metabolism in balance.

Btw, you can modify your metabolism bye eating differently and the body can adapt for a long time before any clinical symptoms show.

Wolcott explains the differences between those 2 groups in the following way: either the sympathetic nervous system or the parasympathetic nervous system is stronger and determines your metabolic type. And those systems can again be influenced by the environment (climate, food availability etc.). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_nervous_system

As i could use his theory to predict food preferences, i never questioned the basic premise. Would be interesting to do some more digging again.

Re: Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us

#122

Post by lesdeuxmagots »

rsync wrote: post #69
stdbrouw wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that what you're proposing is in no way supported by science but is merely your personal theory based on an analogy, right?

A system running at its limits is more sensitive to fluctuations in inputs. That's as true for your body as it is for a nuclear reactor.

Sounds like a justification for performance enhancing drugs.

Re: Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us

#123

Post by agumonkey »

rsync wrote: post #52
static_noise wrote: post #17

I'm waiting for the day that nutricionists find out that there are different kinds of people with different nutritional needs. Imposing rules on the population on a weak scientific basis harms the people, science and the government in the process. Currently the best way to consume food is to avoid addictive and highly processed food products and then trust your gut with the rest. Eat what you like and avoid what caus…

"Currently the best way to consume food is to avoid addictive and highly processed food products and then trust your gut with the rest." Allow me to suggest a further path forward that is superior to "trusting your gut": Establish a regular, very high output exercise regime - incorporating both long duration aerobic/cardio and relatively intense resistance training. Under such a regimen, you will notice what food doe…

I wouldn't emphasize on high output. But I'd bet 1000$ that regular physical activity will shift your diet back to healthy. After running I never crave sodas, I want raw food and water, lots of it.

Re: Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us

#124

Post by dpark »

_0w8t wrote: post #99
dpark wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No negative impacts on health" is a bold claim. If you eat nothing but rice (with salt[1] and herbs) for months, you'll end up with a number of vitamin deficiencies. You'll also end up critically deficient in certain amino acids eventually, because rice does not provide a complete protein profile. Weight is not the only factor in overall health. I'll point out that Atkins makes similar claims for a fat-heavy diet. I…

Rice is amino-deficient only for rats, it has all 8 essential for human amino-acids. But I should wrote "brown unpolished rice" as that contains much more minerals.

> Rice is a good source of protein and a staple food in many parts of the world, but it is not a complete protein: it does not contain all of the essential amino acids in sufficient amounts for good health, and should be combined with other sources of protein, such as nuts, seeds, beans, fish, or meat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice

Re: Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us

#125

Post by nommm-nommm »

tgb29 wrote: post #79
jimrandomh wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I went to the doctor and they said don't wait more than 3-4 hours between meals. This is utterly crazy. If you couldn't go more than 3-4 hours between meals without experiencing dizziness, something about your diet was seriously wrong. If you felt better after experimentally eating something different, then eating that was almost certainly healthier. Yes, even if it was donuts. Don't let cultural beliefs about food…

My problem has been that if I stand up to quickly, I have a moment of dizziness. There are many variables; blood pressure, blood sugar, nervous system, altitude etc. The more aware I am of my diet and how nutrition affects my body, I find the more sensitive I become to changes. I cut coffee, bread, sugar, and beef/pork. I would eat very nutritious meals, and my energy levels and body felt amazing, but the stand up an…

What you are describing is orthostatic hypotension and is somewhat common in otherwise healthy people. Though it can be a sign of some medical coditions so getting it checked out is advisable, perhaps get a second opinion?

(If your blood pressure is on the low side raising it will likely help, but obviously consult with a doctor)

Re: Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us

#126

Post by berntb »

chadgeidel wrote: post #75
ocean3 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Use salt to taste, most likely it won't kill you" - but salt has been used for centuries right. Has there been a change? As an Indian not adding salt is unthinkable.

I think the change has been in volume. In the US at least much of the food you take off the shelves (especially of the "microwave dinner" variety) have large amounts of sodium. I know this is an extreme example, but take a look at the sodium content in those popular "ramen noodle bowls" (styrofoam cup, not in a bag). That's more than 100% of your RDA of sodium right there. They do not taste overly salty IMHO.

In Scandinavia, salt used to be one of the main ways of preserving food. Salted fish with too little little salt resulted in the discovery of surströmming, one of the culinary delights of humanity.

Even today, salt candy is popular (yes, salt); it is one of the things I miss as an expatriate.

So I should have the genes to handle salt -- just need a way to import my salt liquorice...

Re: Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us

#127

Post by e40 »

dpark wrote: post #84
e40 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

incorporating both long duration aerobic/cardio and relatively intense resistance training And there are studies that show walking is just as good, and it certainly wears down the body less than your alternative.

> And there are studies that show walking is just as good, I'm not sure I've ever actually seen one of these studies that show walking is as good for overall health as strenuous exercise. It's hard for me to believe, mostly because I do a ton of walking and find personally that the benefits are nowhere close. But also, "walking is just as good" seems mostly to be the rallying cry of out of shape people who don't want…

That's an odd way to put it. Exercise doesn't "wear down the body".

Running puts tremendous stress on knees and feet. I've not been able to run since I was in my 30's due to my knees just not being able to take it anymore. (I'm not overweight.)

In fact, I walk 4+ miles a day, much up and down hills, and just that has pushed my feet pretty hard. About 5 years ago I had to switch to MBT's because I was essentially unable to walk in regular shoes. And it was a complete fluke that I found those shoes.

Re: Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us

#128

Post by notlefthanded »

nommm-nommm wrote: post #103
rsync wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And there are studies that show walking is just as good, and it certainly wears down the body less than your alternative." I have seen those studies and I tend to agree with them. My own personal experience supports the notion that walking is extremely healthful and provides almost all of the benefits you have in mind. That is, if you're using measures like "do I feel good" "do I look good" "have I kept off those 20…

You're essentially saying the disabled are worth less than the able bodied.

Only in the context of being physically able to assist someone else. To name an extreme, I doubt he's saying that Stephen Hawking is 'worth less' than a given able bodied person.

I think in this case the charitable reading would be to not caveat it with ceteris paribus

Re: Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us

#129

Post by ska »

itchyouch wrote: post #56
cimbal wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. The size relations of inner organs for example vary betweeen people as far as i know. That is a big hint, althought it's not a proof in itself. I want to add to that the nutritional needs within each person vary drastically during different times of year (or times of stress, even down to times of day). Athletes know this, for example, it is common to exhibit significant drops in performance during a year o…

I've observed that a lot of diets tend to have similar effects on the populations that adopt them. People speak about feeling better on Paleo. Body builders/lifters optimize macronutrient intakes for muscle gain with similar results. There's also wide consensus on how certain micronutrient deficiencies cause certain conditions. e.g. Vitamin C deficiency leads to Scurvy. Vitamin A deficiency leads to night-time blindn…

   "People speak about feeling better on Paleo."
You really have to watch selection bias problem here, as (different) people speak of feeling better on pretty much every popular diet ever.

Anecdotal and self reporting data for things like diet/exercise & health are notoriously poor sources (and also often suffer from a host of generalization issues).

Re: Scientists can’t agree whether salt is killing us

#130

Post by tetraodonpuffer »

liveoneggs wrote: post #101
tetraodonpuffer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly given that due to health reasons I have to stick to ~500mg of sodium a day, and have been for years with no adverse effects, I don't consider the 1,500mg Canadian guidelines that low. I do find it funny though that, for example, the Canadian guidelines are 1,500mg while the Italian ones are at 2,400 (and if you look at packaged foods sometimes the percentages seem to be based on 4,000mg) The only way for me…

bread with no or very low sodium exists but usually in the freezer section. http://www.foodforlife.com/product/breads/ezekiel-49-low-sod...

thanks! I've never seen this particular one at my local stores but I'll keep an eye out. Theoretically "Tuscan Bread" should also be made with no added salt, but it's also not easy to find, and I wouldn't trust it anyways unless I knew the baker personally
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