Earlier quoted context omitted.
Our super-Conservative government for the last decade (now replaced by a young, hip, Liberal one) was actually really big behind the 'housing-first' method of helping the homeless (you get an apartment, no questions asked, then we work on your drug problems, etc later), and put a lot of money towards it. At first, this seems very socially liberal and at odds with a Conservative party kind of thing until you look at t…
Well, that's great, then. It seems like a liberal calling card but appeals to everyone's desire to save money while providing actually useful social services. So what's the political argument against it?
SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’
361–370 of 515 posts
Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’
#362The second article from a major media outlet about this guy? Yes, he's inconsiderate, but so what? If it were a blog post from a lawyer or school teacher, would the Post or the Guardian have cared? Would we see articles about a "Law Bro?" The media, collectively, has it in for us. They keep using borderline derogatory labels for us in their articles like "coder" and "techie," and they publish hit pieces like the link…
Oh cry me a river. There is a theme evolving, and the media have latched onto it. Are lawyers and school teachers continually writing these self-righteous 'open letters'? Are lawyers and teachers of a growing, sufficient mass in a city that is struggling to serve a great proportion of it's population (for various, complicated reasons)? No. Life is easier for 'us' than the mentally ill, the addicts, and those with les…
I and countless other programmers have put in thousands of hours unpaid labor to produce public goods in the form of open source software. For that alone I and my profession deserve respect (compare us to dentists, most in the US won't even take medicaid, let alone perform free dental work), and especially respect from these same media outlets that rely on the fruits of our unpaid labor.
Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’
#363I was in Chinatown talking to my grandmother on my cellphone. A homeless person walked up and punched me in the face. SF has the worst homeless problem I've ever seen in the first world, and it rivals the worst of what I've seen in the third world. It's a disgrace and it sucks and I don't have to like it. Whatever the local/state government is doing isn't working. And sure, maybe a lot of the homeless are just normal…
> A homeless person walked up and punched me in the face. Did he steal your phone, or just didn't like you?
Does it matter?
Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’
#364I think he does have a point... but he could have put it better. I live in SF too; for ~10 years. I have never seen it this bad. The City passed a "sit/lie" law a couple of years ago.. but it's never enforced. The City is spending $1M/month ... for housing 225 people[1]. Do the math, and you'll see how ridiculous is that. At that rate, how much do you think the City can spend on the homeless? It has 7000 homeless, an…
The subject is more nuanced than this. Firstly, you need to examine the reason why people are on the streets. Generally, it falls into three categories: 1. 'Normal' People with mental illness, and no support network 2. 'Normal' People who have lost their financial stability. 3. Rest (Choice, Addiction, etc. by far the smallest group) The key thing to note here is that with very, very few exceptions, everyone living o…
I did some work with a bay area organization that runs reduced rate housing for transitionally housed people and families when I was in college. First, I should say that you're completely correct about the numbers at any given time, but this also misses the larger picture.
Homelessness, broadly speaking, breaks down into two categories: temporary and chronic. The vast majority (~90% by the number of people) are 'temporary' (generally just called homeless). These are people who lose housing for a short period, then find housing again. Around 10% of the homeless are 'chronically' homeless - which means they have been homeless repeatedly over a number of years.[0]
I bring this up because I think your impression of where our social safety net is failing is incorrect. We do pretty well when dealing with the 90% of non-chronically homeless people. I think we could do a lot better, but most of those people are homeless for a short time, get help and find housing and stability again. When you talk about 'normal' people who have had a run of bad luck - they are the group we do best at helping.
The chronically homeless, on the other hand, need a totally different set of services. Being homeless for a long period of time often changes your entire outlook on life. The idea of investing in the future, or of any long term planning, can start to seem absurd if you're not sure where your next meal will come from. In general, the idea of living 'in society,' where there are shared rules and expectations looses its value if society places no (or almost no) value on you. Chronically homeless people can prefer homelessness to free housing, they can refuse to participate in a process that will feed, cloth and employ them because they don't believe it will be better than their current lives. They often have PTSD. In many ways, we are still working to understand how to best help this population.
I point this out because it's important to understand the kinds of things we do well and the kinds of things we do poorly. The kinds of interventions that help the recently unhoused will often be useless to the chronically homeless. All people are people and deserve dignity and compassion, but we shouldn't focus too much on how much like us many homeless people are. The failures of our system and what most people think of as 'homeless' people, are often facing a totally different set of problems and have a very different outlook on life. They are just as much people are you or I, but we don't do them favors by pretending they're one missed paycheck away from self-sufficiency.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Sta...
Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’
#365To play devil's advocate, he's right. He shouldn't have to see the pain, struggle, and despair of homeless - the city government should be providing affordable housing and shelters for the homeless. That it hasn't is a failure of the local government, and should be addressed. Much of the reason that affordable housing is out of reach of many in San Francisco is due to government regulation, not market capitalism. Ext…
Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’
#366The second article from a major media outlet about this guy? Yes, he's inconsiderate, but so what? If it were a blog post from a lawyer or school teacher, would the Post or the Guardian have cared? Would we see articles about a "Law Bro?" The media, collectively, has it in for us. They keep using borderline derogatory labels for us in their articles like "coder" and "techie," and they publish hit pieces like the link…
Oh cry me a river. There is a theme evolving, and the media have latched onto it. Are lawyers and school teachers continually writing these self-righteous 'open letters'? Are lawyers and teachers of a growing, sufficient mass in a city that is struggling to serve a great proportion of it's population (for various, complicated reasons)? No. Life is easier for 'us' than the mentally ill, the addicts, and those with les…
Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
he's not right. his position is that he shouldn't have to 'see' homelessness. he doesn't care if it exists or not, just so long as it's out of his view.
Not having to see homelessness sounds harsh. But what about not having to dodge shit, piss and uncapped needles on the street? What about not having to be asked for money constantly? What about not having to hear people yelling at the top of their lungs at 3am? What about not having to feel unsafe ? If it were just seeing people being unobtrusively homeless, there would be no problem, even if they were plainly visibl…
He is free to be rich while others are poor because of the free market. Seems like his free market has created a number of people who leave urine and feces in the streets and ask people for money.
He wants the benefit of a free market without having to deal with the consequences.
Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’
#368Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a complex issue... but in my experience, most of the homeless are not looking for help to find jobs and/or contribute to society in manner that will lead them out of "homelessness." A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle"... we try very hard to help the people that want help. Most don't. Go talk to your local EMS/Fire department personnel and most of them will have similar stories. I know the homeless people in…
>A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle" I used to also think that many homeless "preferred the lifestyle of homelessness" but I recently learned of a town in Canada (Medicine Hat) that found it more cost effective to house the homeless. This myth that people prefer to be homeless was shattered and this town found that nearly all homeless were able to reintegrated back into having their own places. The mayor was skepti…
Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’
#369It's ironic that Keller will get so much shit dumped on him for making the same exact argument that people make against more permissive immigration. Compare: A : Allowing people trapped in unproductive countries to move to US/Canada/Europe would significantly improve their quality of life. B : But think of burden to the welfare state! We wouldn't be able to afford the flood of people moving here for benefits. A : Sim…
To add to that hypocrisy, there's also the outrage when jobs go to the most impoverished in other countries, rather than be given to comparatively wealthy westerners at the expense of both the companies and foreign communities. If you're single w/ no dependents and making $54k or more a year, you are already in the top 1% of the global population by income.[1] Makes a lot of the anti-1% stuff come off as extremely hy…
~50% of the world's population has a negative, or a zero net worth - I guess the homeless person with two dollars in his pocket is better off then a janitor who owns an underwater house, or a freshly graduated doctor.
Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’
#370Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Homeless first" undermines the normal eligibility cycle for public housing. It also destroys the communities in these developments. If you find a man screaming obscenities while taking a dump on the sidewalk distasteful, I'll assure you that the people who get stuck living next to him share your reaction -- except they can't walk away. So you pack housing developments with addicts, crazy people and criminals. Next s…
Also, I would be REALLY pissed if I lived in a town where I had to struggle to make rent on a place I don't own every month, and the city is giving away free permanent houses to folks who don't have jobs or pay rent... I mean, I want homeless people to have homes, but if they're getting one for free and the economy continues to have housing prices way out of the reach of someone like me, I would be fucking pissed.