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Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

theguardian.com

71–80 of 100 posts

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#71
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and the decision to use grow lights indoors instead of sunlight This is the part of indoor automated farming I don't get. You have this free, abundant source of energy needed to grow plants, and you don't use it... why? Seems like a massive inefficiency. Indoors is fine to protect the crops and control the environment, but why not above ground with a clear roof to let sunlight in?

Some vegetables can be overclocked, with a faster day/night cycle than 24 hours. Lettuce can be forced to grow about twice normal speed.

You don't need the night cycle at all for the vegetation stage, just flowering, so run these suckers 24/7 and you get more crops, more often.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and the decision to use grow lights indoors instead of sunlight This is the part of indoor automated farming I don't get. You have this free, abundant source of energy needed to grow plants, and you don't use it... why? Seems like a massive inefficiency. Indoors is fine to protect the crops and control the environment, but why not above ground with a clear roof to let sunlight in?

Do you really think they would invest this much R&D, yet somehow never thought to consider the cost or efficiency advantages of piping natural light? I'm no expert but lighting has gotten a lot more efficient recently: http://www.designrecycleinc.com/led%20comp%20chart.html LEDs are also well suited to farming because you can tune their output spectrum: http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/products/horticulture/c...

Light-emitting plasma (LEP) and white lasers are also making waves. LEDs suffer from narrow beam and canopy penetration, which can be compensated using a rail system.

See: http://plantozoid.com/plasma-grow-light-revolution/

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#73
post #3

I'm a bit puzzled that the reaction on the Guardian to this development is primarily one of fear that robots are taking our jobs. Isn't anyone excited about how all this production and efficiency is going to make food extremely cheap?

Food is already extremly cheap to the point where producers throw it away to artificially raise prises. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-01/milk-spill...

Everyone thinks about food in terms of economic costs. Few people consider the time that's involved. Yes, yes, yes, food is already cheap, but it isn't free because of the time humans spend involved in its production.

Imagine removing humans from the food equation. Production (vertical farms), harvesting (automation), distribution (electric vehicles), clean energy inputs (geothermal, solar, fusion), and maintenance (growing crops that can be used to manufacture replacement parts [e.g., organic polymers and carbon-based electronics] combined with modular robotics) needs to be addressed. Difficult, but not insurmountable.

Once food is actually free (not merely inexpensive), how will it affect the economy? A large part of our economy is based on trading work (indentured servitude!) for food. Such trades probably predate agriculture.

Hunger, humanity’s everlasting, unrelenting stressor is timeless and impelling. Hunger calls us all to consume, to feed corporate machines. Machines that were forged in the flames of the Industrial Revolution, when rich men hammered out schemes for our future. Their plans, perhaps unwittingly, followed the template of slave-driven civilisations wrought throughout the ages. Caste societies wherewithin the wealthy commanded the masses through control of food and knowledge.

The printing press and, on a larger scale, the Internet liberated our minds. Wholly automated, indoor farming has the potential to liberate how we spend our time.

In 1974, Henry Kissinger (a national security operative of the U.S. government) once proposed rationing food in developing nations to restrict population growth. Starve people today to prevent people from starving tomorrow. How brilliant. Decades later, researchers learned that empowering women to make educated decisions about their own wombs reduces birth rates. Imagine that. Kissinger was shown to be wrong, but it took time to discover the flaws in his logic, the errors in his proposal.

With the pressures of work, family life, and other societal impacts, time is the most precious of commodities. What if the majority of the world didn't have to work for food, but, instead, could invest their time dedicated to something they love? (Yes, there are people who have the opportunity to love their work, but I assure you, when compared with the global population, they are an insignificant minority.)

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#74
post #69
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, farming represents something like 2% of the workforce. If we lost every farming job (and we won't - robotic operations will have to be managed and maintained), it would still have less impact than the loss of manufacturing jobs in the '80s and '90s. Transport, I think, would hurt more, but I don't know enough about it to say for sure.

Yes the transport issue is a big one for the US, however I'm talking globally. It's myopic to simply look at the US when talking about things that affect the US. The US doesn't grow its own food, and we should keep that in mind when reading stuff like this. Rather, I'm trying to take a look at these percentages of farming workforces by country: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.AGR.EMPL.ZS and trying to see what…

>The US doesn't grow its own food, and we should keep that in mind when reading stuff like this.

Not sure what you mean by that. The US is a net food exporter by more than 70 million metric tons.

Yes, other countries have more people in farming by percentage. But those people will be pushed out of farming by automation whether or not there are robotic farms.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#75
post #4
post #3

I'm a bit puzzled that the reaction on the Guardian to this development is primarily one of fear that robots are taking our jobs. Isn't anyone excited about how all this production and efficiency is going to make food extremely cheap?

Who has that reaction?? I'm amazed that the drive to Japan's robotic future is human population centric driven: The average age of their farmers is 65.9, young people don't want to be farmers, their population is in decline for many reasons... Robot farming is critical to their bio and economic survival. That fact alone is mind blowing to me. And awesome.

I wouldn't call it "critical" like that. If robot farming became impossible for some reason, and old farmers started dying of old age in large numbers, and if there really were a shortage of farmers or farm laborers, then those who really needed their services would offer a higher wage, raising the price until some young people took it. Assuming Japan has a functioning market economy.

I wonder where this claim came from? (not sure how serious the concern you're talking about is, but let's run with it) Who benefits from persuading concerned authorities to push more young people towards farming? How about farm owners, who would have to offer higher wages to a less-competitive job pool? I wonder if they found it cheaper to just tell interviewers that the sky was falling?

Whenever you hear someone claiming an urgent economic "crisis", be suspicious. Very suspicious. With a moderately healthy market, often this just means someone will have to pay higher prices--which, as far as they're concerned, is an outrage, a scandal, and an emergency.

Edit: Googled around to figure out what stories you might have read. And, let's see:

"... Japan Agriculture (JA). With its tight links to the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) and the agriculture ministry, and employing an astonishing 240,000 staff in Tokyo and around the country, the JA is probably Japan’s most powerful lobby. It campaigns to keep high import tariffs on farm goods: the tariff on rice is 777.7%, that on butter is 360%, while sugar attracts a 328% levy." http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21576154-fewer-bigger-plo...

"Shinzo Abe, Japan’s prime minister, has promised to protect “sacred cows” — including rice, beef and dairy — from the deal. Rice carries an almost spiritual significance here, not to mention a 778 percent tariff." https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/japans-farmers-face-an-...

Hahahaha, welp. Right, then, maybe you don't have a functioning market economy. That sounds to me like the real problem. I know my recommended solution. Hmm, I find it cool that I "called" that one. It's also kind of interesting to see what these Western publications are doing, and how far it leans towards uncritically swallowing the crisis story.

The Economist one is focusing on the TPP, and it is mostly critical of the JA. The Washington Post one--I give them credit for mentioning the important facts, but they exhibit no sense of their proper weight or their meaning. The article is titled "Japan’s farmers face an existential crisis", the first time they mention the agricultural lobby is in the 7th paragraph, and generally it seems like "Oh, gee, things just are that way" amid a sea of distracting details: portraits of individual farmers, their history and aging concerns, oh and by the way it takes a combined effort from the local and federal governments to "experiment" with "reform" of a few farms because they're so heavily intertwined that the government insulates them from market competition with a 4x-8x trade barrier and who knows what else, and also here's what this proud farmer has to say about his profession. Eeh. Just strikes me as bizarre.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and the decision to use grow lights indoors instead of sunlight This is the part of indoor automated farming I don't get. You have this free, abundant source of energy needed to grow plants, and you don't use it... why? Seems like a massive inefficiency. Indoors is fine to protect the crops and control the environment, but why not above ground with a clear roof to let sunlight in?

Oddly enough, and this is completely anecdotal, I've had much better luck growing outdoor plants than indoor plants. If an indoor plant gets some kind of pest (spider mites, aphids, etc) then you pretty much have to sit around spraying it and its peers with oils or alcohol day after day until you're confident the infestation is gone. With outdoor plants, there are so many natural predators to pests that things tend t…

Pro tip: forget the sprays to deal with pests. Buy ladybugs and let them loose. They will do a far more effective job in a much more efficient manner.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#77
post #9

> The robots will do everything from re-planting young seedlings to watering, trimming and harvesting crops. Has the author been to a farm in the past 20 years? Most crops today are not planted by hand, or watered by hand, or harvested by hand. (Harvesting is still the most labor intensive part of farming for a few fruits, but automation isn't far off.) I think the most interesting part of this farm is not the automa…

>and the decision to use grow lights indoors instead of sunlight This is the part of indoor automated farming I don't get. You have this free, abundant source of energy needed to grow plants, and you don't use it... why? Seems like a massive inefficiency. Indoors is fine to protect the crops and control the environment, but why not above ground with a clear roof to let sunlight in?

You can stack fields so you grow 20X the amount per square meter/foot/whatever than you would with sunlight. True there are vertical solutions that use mirrors but these become unwieldy to design and maintain (cleaning the dust off the mirrors etc) so it's simpler to just go with the led shelf solution.

Adding to that, this allows you to grow vast amounts of food in urban environments meaning that it is a cheaper/shorter journey from field to table. Logistics is a major expense in farming and a huge harm factor in relation to our environment.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#78
post #3

I'm a bit puzzled that the reaction on the Guardian to this development is primarily one of fear that robots are taking our jobs. Isn't anyone excited about how all this production and efficiency is going to make food extremely cheap?

I'm also excited that we are reducing jobs. Jobs for jobs sake is a fools errand.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#79
post #10

Artificially-lit indoor farming is neato and will be a great technology to bring into space, but makes almost no sense on earth. Basically, it requires expensive infrastructure and way too much electricity ( https://gigaom.com/2015/12/29/indoor-farming-good-for-cannab... ). Maybe robotically-farmed greenhouses won't have this problem.

I would expect this to be economically viable in Iceland, with their short growing season and cheap geothermal power.

Also rich desert nations that normally depend on food imports, like Saudi Arabia. Solar PV + being able to grow food with minimal water waste is sure to make sense.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#80
post #9

> The robots will do everything from re-planting young seedlings to watering, trimming and harvesting crops. Has the author been to a farm in the past 20 years? Most crops today are not planted by hand, or watered by hand, or harvested by hand. (Harvesting is still the most labor intensive part of farming for a few fruits, but automation isn't far off.) I think the most interesting part of this farm is not the automa…

>and the decision to use grow lights indoors instead of sunlight This is the part of indoor automated farming I don't get. You have this free, abundant source of energy needed to grow plants, and you don't use it... why? Seems like a massive inefficiency. Indoors is fine to protect the crops and control the environment, but why not above ground with a clear roof to let sunlight in?

Most plants photosynthesise on a very narrow band of light. It's actually more efficient to generate electricity using solar panels and reemit using specific wavelength leds. Plants are around 2% efficient while solar panels are around 20%.

Also as has been said below it allows you to stack plants in a way that would be impossible if you were using sunlight.

Additional thoughts are that greenhouses are terrible at retaining heat (interestingly the origin of greenhouses used to have a thick southern facing brick wall to act as a heat soak to maintain an even heat throughout the night) and so if you're trying to keep a certain heat level having glass might end up costing you way more in energy because of the need to heat than you gain from the sun.

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