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For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

calgaryherald.com

131–140 of 190 posts

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#131
post #79

I don't know if I'm gifted (I score 125 at some IQ test on abstraction when applying at a company, but still IQ is not always a correct to measure intelligence, so take this with a grain of salt), but my psychiatrist tells me I'm intelligent (he might say this to agree with me, maybe he doesn't think so and it's for another goal). Yet I'm unemployed, 30 year old, and can't manage to get hired or to do work that is gi…

I'd like to tell you about my most gifted friend. He is my classic definition of genius. He is a particularly lovely human being, handsome, tall and can do most intellectual tasks exceptionally well (eg. Chemistry, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, software engineering, etc). He matches the best I've seen in any of those fields (and I've been involved in complex systems and software for decades).

So, what does he do for a living? Odd jobs. He has held one steady job in the decades I've known him. This is because he has poor social skills (although I've tried to help him learn the ropes of understanding people) and because he finds accepting other people's mediocrity frustrating as he politely tells them their errors - and conversely, they resent his cleverness.

I was lucky enough to work with someone similar to my friend about 10 years ago. As his boss, I sat down with him and basically said "you are very clever but you are also ignorant. You change external interfaces that drive significant changes to the rest of the system. You must stop it for the sake of the project". He exploded and told me to "f* myself" in front of the project team of ~100 to hear. Two hours later, he apologised and thanked me for my honesty and wisdom (translation: courage to tackle the wild brumby). When I saw him a few years ago, he was a different person. He thanked me for my kindness and patience back then, which meant a lot to me.

To wrap it all up: some people truly March to the beat of their own drum. I thrive on these people.

Good luck. I hope you find your groove. No one else will find it for you, unfortunately.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#132

Ah yes, the monthly link to an article about intelligent/gifted children and the troubles their talents cause them, leading to all the self-proclaimed gifted HNers coming out of the woodwork declaiming "Me too! Me too! Finally someone who understands me!". Not dismissing the article itself, but it's definitely a pattern on HN.

I see no reason to call this out derisively. It's clear that the US educational system simply doesn't know how to handle high intelligence. And why wouldn't they gravitate towards HN? > self-proclaimed gifted HNers Did you see how much tests for giftedness cost in the article? Do you really expect all these people to go out and get tested before feeling like they have permission to comment on an Internet forum about…

They certainly do know how to handle high intelligence. But it's for the benefit of everyone else, other than the intelligent students.

I recall in Kurt Vonnegut's _Sirens of Titan_ how people on Earth were handicapped, to counter their strengths. The most intelligent people had to wear earphones that constantly emitted annoying sounds so that it was harder for them to think clearly. That's very much like the way GLaDOS was handicapped in the Portal 2 backstory by attaching Wheatley to her--a personality core that was designed by the best scientists to be the worst possible idiot, to constantly feed her bad ideas.

The US educational system piles gratuitous additional work on the smartest students. Rather than just graduating, how about graduating while taking a bunch of AP or IB classes? The system accommodates them by digging additional official channels, rather than allowing them to become self-directed autodidacts or entrepreneurs.

I know that when I was a kid, I would have totally wasted any additional free time I may have had outside of classes, but it's very possible that some of my classmates in all the various "X" sections might have taken part-time jobs, or started low-capital businesses, or educated themselves on topics the school could never teach.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#133
post #85

I could say a lot about the quality of education: the lack of a challenge, the boringness of the one-size-fits-all curriculum, etc. But boredom isn't that big of a deal. I made up for that by studying what I wanted to outside of school, instead of doing homework. Even with the vindictive teachers that made homework 30% of the final grade, it was still cakewalk to pass their classes without doing a single assignment.…

>Bullying mostly targets the gifted I believe bullies target what is different. Intelligence or lack of it will make you a target in equal measure. Got a birthmark on your face? Boom, you're a target. My kids don't go to a school that accepts bullying. I don't think bullying was seen all that different when I was at school.

>I believe bullies target what is different.

Fully agree. I think the problem is how people react to different differences. Kid who has clear physical disability getting bullied is seen immediately as a problem and dealt with.* Special education children getting bullied aren't quite as well responded to (lots of justification by adults that the children are treating them differently because society treats them differently), but any overt bullying is still squished. But being bullied for being different in just social skills but not other means... many adults will look at the bullying as a natural reaction to the victim being socially awkward instead of as bullying. And there is a bit of truth in that, because the difference between ostracizing someone who is socially awkward because you just don't want to be around them and ostracizing someone who is socially awkward as a way to bully them is not that clear cut. At the end of the day, the kid ends up ostracized either way.

*If they recognize it. Many forms of treating someone differently are hard to recognize if you haven't experienced them. A classical example is people asking extra questions to gay people that they would never ask to straight people, even though the questions themselves are mostly benign. Regardless of how harmless the questions themselves are, it is still treating them differently, which has subconscious effects.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#134
post #95

A point not raised in the article: some areas have gifted programs that are simply too large. I was enrolled in one in Fairfax County in northern Virginia, and nearly a fifth of the student population was part of it. I moved away before high school, but in high school, the program ended, and the expectation was that gifted children enroll in the Thomas Jefferson magnet school for science and technology — which looked…

An anecdote:

The gifted program at my school was genuinely fun and interesting. They spent the year on a theme, say astronomy, and explored that theme through a variety of projects. For example, they designed a game about space travel, they built a model of the solar system, etc.

I was not in it until the 6th grade, the last year before "gifted" meant "do more homework" in my school system. I got in because the previous year I built a fairly impressive lego castle for my entry project and maybe they thought that because they were doing architecture as the theme that I would do well. I really did enjoy it and looked forward to it every week.

But I was not, and am not, an exceptionally hard worker or particularly motivated to excel. I probably have an above average memory and was thus able to do well in school despite my laziness (I graduated high school with a 3.3 GPA). Even if I was "gifted", you wouldn't know it from my work. But given the opportunity to engage in something, I took that chance and looked forward to it.

I'm not sure that this addresses the children in the article, but I feel it's sort of a pity that the weekly "explore your interests" classes are no longer part of the gifted program in my child's school district. Not because she's necessarily gifted, but because I think she'd find it fun.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#135
post #2

Quote: "Reed’s entanglements serve as an apt metaphor for the school life of severely gifted children." Ah, "severely gifted" -- what a meme. What a commentary on the times in which we live. I can imagine psychologists surveying this new frontier with barely concealed joy, in particular now that the DSM is being abandoned. People need to understand that, in modern times, to avoid one or another mental illness diagnos…

A behavioral health diagnosis doesn't mean you're damaged or disabled or even that you're a special snowflake that needs special accommodations.

A behavioral health diagnosis, just like any health diagnosis, just recognizes that you have some thing that is negatively impacting you.

Just as the diagnosis of an ingrown toenail doesn't mean you need special treatment, neither does a mental health diagnosis.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#136
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two reasons for this. 1) Programming attract this sort of people in first place, where you see programmers, you will see lots of people like the ones described in the article. 2) It is very problematic, unfixed, and people need help. At least I do... but at the same time I refrain from asking for help, because usually the result is negative. "Oh, here we go again with the super intelligent guy complaining a…

Go to a doctor and let them describe you something for depression. Worked for me. Be open about your problems and don't be ashamed. Most people feel the way you do. I never lie to people about my mental issues - not even at work. Guess what? 95% of the people I worked with (all other programmers) were on some kind of meds, too - for depression, social anxiety, ADHD etc.. Feels so much better just being open about it…

Happily for me, I don't have depression (at least, I think I don't).

But when I was a kid, the school begged my parents many times to take me to some kind of doctor, and this only offended my parents, that always refused, the exception is that they once too me to see if I was deaf or not.

After I reached adulthood, and flunked hard at life in general, that I went to seek medical help.

The results were:

1) the first few medics I went, believed I was a junkie wanting fake prescription, I have no idea why (I never used any illegal substance, never had used controlled meds before, and never got drunk, and never smoked).

2) My parents had a few nasty fights with me, claiming that I was normal and only doing what I was doing to hurt them or something.

3) As I went learning about my conditions, and started to be open about it, people instead started to interpret that I wanted pity and attention, or that I was humblebragging, and had invariably negative reactions.

4) Eventually I found a good medic, that prescribed me Ritalin, it is helping a little, but very little.

Among my issues is that I never learned how to work "hard", I only work in bursts, and only when I am interested or close to a deadline, school was extremely easy to me, I don't even know my teacher faces of the last school years because I just slept in the classes (and still aced the tests), I never learned to sit down quiet and study, this is now biting me in the ass (I don't had Calculus classes on university, and now that I need it I am trying to learn by myself, but I keep getting distracted...)

I never learned hwo to pretend that I am working, like people do in their workplaces, even when I was the highest performing person in the workplace I still got fired because I was not "serious" or I wasn't "wearing the company shirt", because while all my co-workers just sat staring at their code 8 hours, I coded all that I had to code in 1 hour and then spent the rest goofing around on youtube and reddit.

When I DO want to code 8 hours, I still end goofing around too easily (example: Xcode crashes... while I wait for it to launch I decide to read e-mail, one e-mail has a link to wikipedia... and here we go wasting 4 hours reading wikipedia).

Plus lots of other issues irrelevant to work performance (like needing stuff cut-off from t-shirts, moving all the time to the point of losing a girlfriend over it, puking when eating certain foods, inability to communicate with "normal" people, because no matter what phrase I construct, it keeps getting way over their heads, and the list goooooes on).

The best I found I can do is rant on internet sometimes.

And keep taking Ritalin properly, and going to the psychologist... still very slow progress, I am 28, live with my parents, have no girlfriend, I am unemployed, and don't own any property (but have debts, my total net worth is negative).

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#137

Ah yes, the monthly link to an article about intelligent/gifted children and the troubles their talents cause them, leading to all the self-proclaimed gifted HNers coming out of the woodwork declaiming "Me too! Me too! Finally someone who understands me!". Not dismissing the article itself, but it's definitely a pattern on HN.

HN has 300k daily uniques. If you filter down to 99th percentile, and again the half of the student population that has a shitty time through school, the article is going to be seen by something like 6000 people that fit the bill. Given that approximately 1% of the viewership will actually post comments, and you should expect to get sixty people who are willing to talk and have relevant experiences to share.

Note that this should be an underestimation - HN filters for the tech crowd, and by proxy, for IQ. Anyhow, my point is that you get less of the woodwork effect than my priors for how many relevant people would want to comment about it. My theory is that they've been traumatized into not talking about their experience as a gifted child, along with a side of imposter syndrome. And you're making that problem worse for that demographic. Congratulations.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#138

I think that there's plenty of intelligent kids who are able to devote part of their intelligence to noticing the whole lord of the flies going around and figuring that it's better to not raise you hand when teacher asks question (because answering it won't give you anything (besides grade which is useless) and can paint crosshair on your back) and figuring that it's better to be useful to reasonable group so you can…

>I think that there's plenty of intelligent kids who are able to devote part of their intelligence to noticing the whole lord of the flies going around and figuring that it's better to not raise you hand when teacher asks question

I think these come from different sorts of intelligence. You can be intelligent in regards to knowing the right answer but be stupid in regards to knowing that you shouldn't be a know-it-all. Or you could lack the ability to evaluate the advice of adults and thus fully believe what they say at face value (which when combined with the peer-pressure is evil message can lead to optimizing social interactions in some of the worst ways possible).

Those who are gifted socially and in other ways are likely to have far less trouble. I think the gifted who have problems are those gifted in some way, but who are below average in terms of social skills, because the ways they are gifted leads to adults missing that the ways they are challenged.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#139
This kind of hits home because I a) live in Calgary and b) was in a 'gifted' school program for a year or so (at public school). I also graduated early.

Personally, I'm against the idea of segregated classrooms. In our 'gifted' program, we did get to do some cool things. We assembled a small robot (this was in the mid 1990's when that was just becoming a 'thing'), used computers, and did other 'gifted' things. But the problem was, we just saw it as a way to get out of doing normal homework (we'd still write tests in the classroom with the 'normal' kids), and eventually still got bored with it because the teachers didn't really have a well defined curriculum to teach. In the end, I not only went back to regular classes, but never did any 'advanced' classes again. And the truth was, those 'gifted' classes never really taught us anything that a bit of time in the computer lab or a science project (both of which were part of the 'regular' curriculum) couldn't.

I also made some poor life decisions (some good ones too, like playing sports, starting hobbies and making poor decisions/having fun), and today I'm quite happily adjusted, married, in University as an older student, albeit with kinda shitty job prospects in Canada.

And about the article, I'd also surmise that many of those 'gifted' kids may have some sort of mental health issues. Sometimes the two go hand-in-hand. And social conditioning is important.

Also, the regular school system in Canada is much better than most people realize. As part of the 'regular' school system, I learned French (immersion from kindergarten), learned basic computer programming (in 9th grade, still in the 1990's!), we did all sorts of cool science projects (which I hope my kids will still be able to do), used power tools in shop class, got plenty of computer lab time (much of which was spent playing multi-player games over the network of Apple IIs whilst ignoring the teacher), played countless sports, got to learn how to ski (which otherwise my family could have never afforded, and today I do a lot of), and band class was forced on everyone which was nice because even the bullies had to bear the embarrassment of being terrible at playing an instrument (actually everyone got quite good in the end). Assuming the public school system hasn't got worse, I definitely plan on sending my children there.

Anyhow, just some random thoughts on the matter - I believe in a strong system for everyone, if someone is a little ahead, maybe they can pick up a hobby, or use that time to learn a sport. The 'regular' system was quite good, the 'gifted' program was a bad afterthought, and making friends with 'normal' kids was definitely good for my mental health and general happiness.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#140
post #54

Intelligence is disruptive to the way people organize. Any trait that is disproportionately out of balance is in effect, a deformity. We used to say about gifted special education classes, "we're not retards, we're more like super -retards." So we have a bunch of intellectually unbalanced kids whose deformity happens to be a mystical trait that modern society irrationally worships. Kids who have no control over the t…

That advice resonates with me.

My wife and son are Aspergers. I put a lot of effort into teaching social skills to my son (via myself and through courses) and by proxy, my wife has benefitted too. We also put my son into a regular and high performing school, despite his gifted ability (WISC tested).

I've had several friends tell me that I saved my son, which I think means that focussing on socialisation and behaviour was of more benefit to him than solely driving his academic performance.

He went from a troubled boy to reasonably accepted in a few years. While it's feigned behaviour (eg. He mimics being like others), it helps him socially. I've seen other Aspergers kids be broken by their peers because they don't try to (or can't) conform.

I spoke with his teacher last week and said "I expect the same respect and treatment for my son where possible" and highlighted a bad example where my son was singled out in front of the class "you can't treat an Aspergers like that".

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