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Is Donald Trump a fascist? A historian of fascism weighs in

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Re: Is Donald Trump a fascist? A historian of fascism weighs in

#51

The things Donald Trump says (such as "stop Mexicans from coming into our country illegally" or "ban Muslims from immigrating to our country until we're confident in our terrorist screening process") offend a LOT of people. People who don't believe such things should be said, or even talked about. People who, when someone says these things, viciously attack them, saying they are morally wrong for thinking those thing…

People have just as much of a right to call Trump a racist and fascist as he does to say the things he does. No matter how much it might hurt someone's feelings. You use a lot of strong language to describe what is only (free) speech: "viciously attack", "silence those who dare utter", "squash dissent", "lynch mobbing".

The difference is that journalism comes with responsibilities, that are largely getting ignored. This article was supposedly exempted from political penalties because it's "so interesting". But if you look at it, it starts with the assertion

"Trump’s campaign has stirred bigoted feelings in the electorate and played to voters’ worst fears and prejudices"

has the first interview response say

"he’s totally foreign to any of the skills that are wanted in a president of the United States"

and then hopes you'll consider the rest of the article middle-of-the-road political analysis. Well, maybe if you're inclined to the "anyone who supports the candidate I don't like must be evil or stupid" line of thinking, you'll go for that notion. And you'll keep being befuddled by how more and more of the population seems to have gone mad...

Now, here's where I'll stick in the caveat: I'm not American, I don't really care who America elects (it's not up to me), but the problems with journalism in your country are the same elsewhere.

It is not politics that is broken; it is journalism, and the public knows it. People do not blame politicians for the 15-second sound bite or for spin, they blame the journalists because they know dang well that the politicians do soundbites because if they did long reasoned speeches the journalists would just cherry-pick whatever bits they liked to paint whatever narrative they liked. In the last few years, journalism has gone over the tipping point -- journalists are all over Twitter as the voice of the public, and Twitter re-tweets the journalists. It all becomes very circular, and quickly spirals away from any reality -- media and social media both get targeted by activism campaigns. Twitterstorms have too often become media headlines in themselves, and it has killed media credibility. Today the narratives all reek of being inventions.

"Trump is a clown", "Trump is bigoted", "Is Trump a fascist" and yet his numbers keep going up -- it's nothing about anger or a more prejudiced population (nobody's replaced the US population between 2012 and 2016...) It pushes votes to Trump because media narratives are now actively unbelieved.

Sanders and Trump sound extreme? The electorate doesn't care (why should they -- the "establishment" in congress and the courts will stop all the extreme ideas anyway). But it's a marker that they're not saying just what you're allowed to say. Jeb's biggest gaffe was when he commented "you can't say that" about Trump. Do you reckon the US public wants to elect a president who would shirk from expressing their opinion for fear of a Twitterstorm?

Sanders is perhaps a genuine socialist campaigner. Trump is essentially a smart operator who was the first to realise that this year you can essentially ride "F you, Twitter" all the way to the bank.

Re: Is Donald Trump a fascist? A historian of fascism weighs in

#52
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen more than a handful of presumably right-wing commentators on Reddit of late arguing that the Nazis were actually socialists or 'communists' rather than a right-wing group. The ensuing (typically unresolved) argument comes down to how fascism is defined for each person. Fascism is clearly in the eye of the beholder.

Nazi is national socialism. Fascism was in Italy and Spain.

Spain's (and Portugal's) case was more of a traditionalist, catholic thing. Franco just appropriated the imaginery of the falangist party, then proceed to do what he wanted. Which was autocracy at first and, when it didn't work, technocracy. That did indeed work and built Spain's middle class.

Re: Is Donald Trump a fascist? A historian of fascism weighs in

#53
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Owning a book and reading it are two different things. We all own books we've never read.

Why on earth would you own a book you've never read?

I've bought around 8 or 9 books in the last few months and haven't read any of them yet. They go on my bookshelf until I'm done with my current reading.

I tend to read them in chronological order of purchase.

Re: Is Donald Trump a fascist? A historian of fascism weighs in

#54
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nazi is national socialism. Fascism was in Italy and Spain.

The Nazi party was socialist in much the same way the DPRK is democratic.

It wasn't all that different from Soviet Union back then. Or current DPRK for that matter.

Re: Is Donald Trump a fascist? A historian of fascism weighs in

#55
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just the Tolerance Paradox. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance Except not really. There's no movement on the left to outlaw what trump is saying. Pointing out something is racist on twitter is not "squashing dissent".

Erm, people have been trying to get him tossed off Twitter [1] and banned from entering various countries [2] and apparently some of his most vocal supporters have had their Twitter accounts mysteriously locked-out [3] [1] http://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/01/30/1847207/why-does-twi... [2] http://thevine.com.au/politics/australians-want-ban-donald-t... [3] http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/02/08/twitters-attempt-to.…

How on earth is Breitbart anything approaching a reliable source.

Re: Is Donald Trump a fascist? A historian of fascism weighs in

#56
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on earth would you own a book you've never read?

I tell myself I'll get around reading them eventually. Although the backlog well is in to the hundreds now, so I don't imagine I actually will.

There's a word for it: tsundoku

Re: Is Donald Trump a fascist? A historian of fascism weighs in

#58
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Owning a book and reading it are two different things. We all own books we've never read.

Why on earth would you own a book you've never read?

Because you are planning to read it and haven't? In my case, decades have elapsed between purchase and reading. And I imagine that Donald Trump can afford to purchase more books than I can.

Or because your decorator thought that they looked good on a shelf? But I would question the judgment of a decorator who thought that a book of Hitler's speeches was just what the room needed.

Re: Is Donald Trump a fascist? A historian of fascism weighs in

#59
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen more than a handful of presumably right-wing commentators on Reddit of late arguing that the Nazis were actually socialists or 'communists' rather than a right-wing group. The ensuing (typically unresolved) argument comes down to how fascism is defined for each person. Fascism is clearly in the eye of the beholder.

It was an evolution. The party started as an anti-capitalist worker's party with a left-wing manifesto and parts of the party wanted to collaborate with the communist party. However, Hitler jettisoned the left-wing aspects, cozied up to the capitalists and aristocrats to fund the growth of the party and reshaped the party inspired by Mussolini's fascists. The early socialist manifestos were an embarrassment for the p…

Quite correct. Goebbels was on the left wing of the party originally, but was ultimately a Hitler loyalist. The Night of the Long Knives in June 34, and the killing of Ernst Roehm, was all about the purging of any threats from the the left wing of the party.

Re: Is Donald Trump a fascist? A historian of fascism weighs in

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nazi is national socialism. Fascism was in Italy and Spain.

Wrong. Hitler had great admiration of Mussolini all the way up to Mussolini's death. Hitler copied Mussolini (including the Roman salute) and used Italy's dictatorship as a model for Germany's. Fascism in Spain didn't come until after fascism took over both Italy and Germany, and only did with the help of both of those countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica

And Mussolini copied it all from Gabriele D'Annunzio's irredentist Regency of Carnaro in Fiume 1919-20

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Regency_of_Carnaro

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