Why expat Americans are giving up their passports • Hacker News Board

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#211

Post by arto » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:56 PM UTC

iaskwhy wrote: post #123

arto wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other measures and rankings elsewhere. In addition to the additional metrics you mentioned, perhaps yet another to take into account is how hostile natives feel towards you when traveling in certain parts of the world--up to and including harassment, kidnapping, and (in limited locations) beheading risks. In places (even here in Europe) where people tend to by default assume good English speakers to be Amer…

I find this topic very interesting and have been thinking about it for a few years now since I'm now allowed to get British citizenship. A few other things which might be important: - The government and future possibility of US tax arrangements being implemented; - How war prone the country is because one might be under the obligation to be sent to a war theatre being a citizen (not sure about this, just me thinking…

Many nation-states impose not only conscription in wartime, but also universal conscription in peacetime for males of certain age. Some citizenships (e.g. Switzerland or Israel) would thus come with some pretty significant strings attached, buyer beware.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#212

Post by splintercell » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:58 PM UTC

maxerize wrote: post #83

mbesto wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US economy and quality of life commands that premium. Note - My fiancee is British and I've lived for 4 years overseas in the EU (UK 3 years, DE for 1). As the tax code as an American begins to squeeze more and more, I've become more reluctant to "pay" that premium, but there are indeed aspects of American life and opportunity that don't currently exist in the EU.

I constantly have to remind myself that people who browse HN learn strongly libertarian and are mostly well-off white males. Otherwise, saying that the US quality of life exceeds that of the UK, Germany or Switzerland is just blatantly false.

There was a time when Germany used to be the leading country in the world where almost all major thoughts and works were produced. Whether it was Literature, Art, Philosophy, Cinema, political thinking, Germany was the place to go (and because of close interactions, Austria).

Before that, it was Arab World, before that Ancient Rome, before than Ancient Greece.

Today that status belongs to America. If you want to produce anything which would make impact in the world, the most fertile ground for that is America. Even if a talent rises up say in Germany, the network effect of America attracts those individual to come to America. Maybe there is a smarter Elon Musk in South Africa, but the main point is that Elon Musk never came to America, this Elon Musk did.

I am not saying that somehow by being in America you automatically will be more likely to produce great thinking. Rather its more like being among more challenging and talented peers will bring your exposure and contribution to another level, something which isn't possible currently (even with the Internet) to be in Germany or Switzerland.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#213

Post by VLM » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #53

arto wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being stateless is not a good thing. That's wholly a matter of individual preference. I know Mike Gogulski personally and I can attest to him being quite happy having made the choices he did, and no longer being part of what he perceives as an evil empire. The tax question never factored into his decision, it was moral questions that preoccupied him.

I applaud the mans morals but I foresee some practical complications in such trivalities as child-birth, hospitalization, estate planning (and eventual execution) and so on. None of those may apply to him and he's apparently thought this through very well but the wheels of government have a very annoying habit of grinding on with or without your consent and by placing yourself purposefully outside of the system you m…

For all practical purposes having Nicaraguan citizenship does nothing for the guy who empties the wastebaskets at work. From what little high school spanish I can remember, he seems fairly happy and unconcerned about all these supposed problems you list. He might be the first stateless person in your area, but I assure you he's unlikely to be the first non-american citizen in your area to have a child or visit the hospital or whatever else.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#214

Post by gotchange » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #182

amazon_not wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Movies perhaps?

yes, movies like Tears of the sun. considering the number of US citizens, they are all over planet and it's a rather unreasonable expectation. generally US citizenship meant much more in the past than it means now since there are more interesting places to live (albeit in long term US might still prove as best spot... or not).

When the most recent war broke out in Yemen, the Indian govt managed to evacuate its citizens from Yemen using their navy and if you take into account the size of the Indian diaspora in the Arabian Peninsula including Yemen, it wasn't an easy feat and I can't imagine that the USG wouldn't be capable of carrying out a similar evacuation plan or doing what it could to get their citizens out of harm's way abroad.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#215

Post by kalleboo » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 3:01 PM UTC

sk3l wrote: post #159

If you live abroad & give up your citizenship, I think you should sign a waiver clause giving US government release of liability for any security, diplomatic services, basically anything you'd ever ask for. The US is off the hook for your safety and comfort, forever. Perhaps this is already part of the process, not sure. IMO, depending on where you are living abroad, that might give one misgivings about turning in on…

Isn't that exactly what giving up your passport does? And as long as you've acquired a new one from a developed country, you're probably better off anyway for safety and comfort (e.g. other countries may cover your medical care)

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#216

Post by dalke » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 3:02 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #202

mike_hearn wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are some benefits to being a US citizen, like that the army will rescue you if there is a civil war This is a common myth. If you don't intend to return to the USA there are no benefits to US citizenship, only downsides. The US may or may not rescue you if there's a civil war (see the fate of people in Yemen), but if they do, they will charge you for it at military rates you almost certainly cannot afford: ht…

> they will charge you for it at military rates you almost certainly cannot afford Your link says "We charge you the equivalent of a full coach commercial fare on a comparable mode of transportation at the time that commercial travel ceases to be a viable option."

In a parallel thread, mike_hearn links to https://goatpath.wordpress.com/2011/02/11/how-much-can-an-ev... .

The 45 minute flight from Port Au Prince, Haiti (after the earthquake) to Santo Domingo, DR cost $841.11.

I think this is because 'full coach commercial fare' is the most expensive coach option. Very few ever purchase it, excepting those who want full flexibility to change the schedule without extra fees, or request a class upgrade if available.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#217

Post by MCRed » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 3:03 PM UTC

timthelion wrote: post #24

I am an American living in Prague and will be among those to give up their citizenship. The new FBAR requirements and the recently pushed through changes that require foreign banks to report are really a huge burden. It is a significant legal risk to be an American overseas. The fines are insane for failiure to report, even if you owe no taxes! You can easilly land yourself with a $20 000 - $80 000 fine for having a…

What do you mean by "austerity"? The US government has spent $8T under Obama in new debt (and that beats the previous record set immediately before by George W Bush- it's not a partisan thing, both parties over spend.)

As an american who has lived overseas, I totally agree with you about FBARs, it's beyond unreasonable.

But where is the austerity?

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#218

Post by cariaso » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 3:04 PM UTC

dalke wrote: post #189

c4n4rd wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides Prague being a beautiful place, what else made you decide to live there? I am thinking about living in Europe too.. but it has been difficult to decide. Thanks and cheers.

I'm not the one who moved to Prague.

hey I know that username. greetings from my new home in S. Korea :-)

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#219

Post by VLM » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 3:05 PM UTC

I'm surprised 10% of the comments are on the topic of Grenada-style evacuation from warzones. The total number of evacuee's vs total number of expatiates over the last couple decades must be a truly microscopic percentage.

I have a long term goal of moving to Canada; better health care system, I love winter sports and weather, etc. I personally know people in Belgium and Sweden and Ireland. Evac sounds very unlikely, and if there were a military invasion, it would probably be the USA doing it, so I'm anticipating coordination would be complicated to the point of uselessness (First cross the front lines of the battle without getting killed to enter the USA sector, then evac? Seriously?).

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#220

Post by sdenton4 » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 3:07 PM UTC

wlesieutre wrote: post #207

nvarsj wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also an expat, living in the UK. The FBAR isn't too bad at all, it takes 30 minutes to file electronically if your records are in order. The real burden is filing my annual taxes. I'm a contractor with a limited liability company, common setup in the UK. However in the US, this is treated as me having financial interest in a foreign C-Corp, which has an extremely complicated tax return. Fortunately I have a famil…

I've heard elsewhere that foreign banks were closing down accounts of American expats because the customers aren't worth the FATCA paperwork. Have you encountered any trouble with that?

We've seen trouble with this in Canada. My partner's investment manager is basically kicking us out because we're living in the US now.