Live data from Hacker News

Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

bbc.com

121–130 of 411 posts

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#121

I am an American living in Prague and will be among those to give up their citizenship. The new FBAR requirements and the recently pushed through changes that require foreign banks to report are really a huge burden. It is a significant legal risk to be an American overseas. The fines are insane for failiure to report, even if you owe no taxes! You can easilly land yourself with a $20 000 - $80 000 fine for having a…

[deleted]

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does your girlfriend have access to services as a US citizen? Such as embassies, entrance to the US without a visa, or evacuation in case of war? Who should pay for those services if your girlfriend doesn't want to?

The USA charges people it evacuates from war zones, and may or may not do so at all. It is not obligated to do so. Additionally, if she has dual citizenship, she would get it for free from the UK anyway even if she lives in Spain. People with British passports also have 90-day visa free access under the Visa waiver program. Unless she intends to move there, there aren't really any benefits to being a US citizen, and…

If she's come to the conclusion that she doesn't need any of the services that she gets as a citizen, for the reasons you've given, then why is she still a citizen? Either it's worth it (including any emotional attachment) when you balance it against the cost or it isn't.

But if she chooses to retain her citizenship then she's incurring a potential cost to the US, which surely it's reasonable for her to contribute to.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#123
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That shows it tied with Finland and Sweden, and the only ranking it uses is how many countries you can travel to without a visa, which is a bit limited as a statement of 'power' (though it is definitely an important measure). Other important measures would be in how many countries there are consular services available for holders of a certain passport and a couple of others.

There are other measures and rankings elsewhere. In addition to the additional metrics you mentioned, perhaps yet another to take into account is how hostile natives feel towards you when traveling in certain parts of the world--up to and including harassment, kidnapping, and (in limited locations) beheading risks. In places (even here in Europe) where people tend to by default assume good English speakers to be Amer…

I find this topic very interesting and have been thinking about it for a few years now since I'm now allowed to get British citizenship. A few other things which might be important: - The government and future possibility of US tax arrangements being implemented; - How war prone the country is because one might be under the obligation to be sent to a war theatre being a citizen (not sure about this, just me thinking out loud).

Any other bits?

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#124
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to break it to you, but if you're a non-US citizen but a permanent resident in the US, you're a "US person": https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/120.15 This means that you're completely subject to US tax law, even if you leave the US. Congratulations! You're now subject to FATCA!

Except of course that if and when he leaves he ceases to be that US person because he's no longer a permanent resident.

Sorry - that would make sense.

The definition of "US person" just linked to is not accurate for FATCA. You are still considered a US person even after you leave, because you must have had a green card, and even after that green card expires you are still a US person for another decade if you don't get it explicitly revoked:

http://www.ustaxfs.com/what-is-a-us-person-for-irs-tax-purpo...

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're a permanent resident until you formally renounce permanent residency at a US embassy or consulate. Some may permit mailing in your green card, others require you to appear in person. However, the process is or was free when I went through it. I think there are other ways of losing permanent residence, but the only guaranteed ways are when you renounce or when the US takes it from you. Either way, you better ha…

I wonder. You can lose your PR status simply by: > Fail to file income tax returns while living outside of the United States for any period. [1] But they do require you report your loss of PR status to the IRS. So I wonder if failing to file thus losing your status would count as good enough to the IRS. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-green-card-granted/ma...

I don't know. My impression is that you don't officially lose your status until some US government official or agency confirms it. Presumably, you may not have intended to give up PR. Maybe you had a stroke or you were unable to meet the requirements through no fault of your own. But I'm speculating. I don't know.

As for the IRS, the rules are in the instructions to form 8854[1]:

> Date of termination of long-term residency.

> If you were a U.S. long-term resident (LTR), you terminated your lawful permanent residency on the earliest of the following dates.

> 1. The date you voluntarily abandoned your lawful permanent resident status by filing Department of Homeland Security Form I-407 with a U.S. consular or immigration officer.

> 2. The date you became subject to a final administrative order for your removal from the United States under the Immigration and Nationality Act and you actually left the United States as a result of that order.

> 3. If you were a dual resident of the United States and a country with which the United States has an income tax treaty, the date you commenced to be treated as a resident of that country and you determined that, for purposes of the treaty, you are a resident of the treaty country and gave notice to the Secretary of such treatment. See Regulations section 301.7701(b)-7 for information on other filing requirements if you are such an individual.

[1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf

EDIT: These are the rules for long-term permanent residents (8 years or more). I don't know what the rules are for other permanent residents, if there even are any. But you're probably better off if you clearly state your intent and file I-407.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#126
post #10

Doesn't US have bilateral tax treaties with (at least) Western European counties? And shouldn't such a treaty strive to protect American citizens from paying double taxes?

The problem isn't citizenship-based taxation, it's an odd concept but it's been there for a very long time, there's a relatively high standard deduction and IIRC your local income tax is also deductible. Expats have dealt with that for more than a century. As the article points out, the problem is FATCA which doesn't come close to fixing the issue it's supposed to fix (income tax evasion) and completely breaks expats…

The size of the limit falls every year as it's not inflation linked or FX adjusted. When it was first set it was truly very high and over time it's fallen to the point where now a pretty typical skilled job in a place like Switzerland will immediately push Americans over the limit.

Also, tax is complicated. Other countries often have mandatory pension or savings schemes for unemployment and these are not always recognised as such by the US tax code, meaning you can get taxed on your pension twice, etc.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#127
post #15

I don't even have to click to know what this is about. God damn government wants to tax me despite being overseas. Don't get me wrong here. I love my country but hot damn do I hate our government. HK or UK or Canadian passport would probably be nearly as good but without any of the bullshit.

> I don't even have to click to know what this is about. God damn government wants to tax me despite being overseas. So turns out you don't know what this is about. It's not about the century-old citizenship-based taxation, it's about the additional legal and bureaucratic overhead of FATCA on both the citizen and the structures around them e.g. non-US banks refusing to deal with US citizens because they don't want to…

FATCA exists only because of citizenship based taxation.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I constantly have to remind myself that people who browse HN learn strongly libertarian and are mostly well-off white males. Otherwise, saying that the US quality of life exceeds that of the UK, Germany or Switzerland is just blatantly false.

saying "blatantly false" does not make something factual. Please provide and argument with evidence instead of blanket racist remarks.

For an example, this site doesn't have very comprehensive indicators but it's a good start:

https://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/DE/US

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#129

I am an American living in Prague and will be among those to give up their citizenship. The new FBAR requirements and the recently pushed through changes that require foreign banks to report are really a huge burden. It is a significant legal risk to be an American overseas. The fines are insane for failiure to report, even if you owe no taxes! You can easilly land yourself with a $20 000 - $80 000 fine for having a…

I'm also an expat, living in the UK. The FBAR isn't too bad at all, it takes 30 minutes to file electronically if your records are in order. The real burden is filing my annual taxes. I'm a contractor with a limited liability company, common setup in the UK. However in the US, this is treated as me having financial interest in a foreign C-Corp, which has an extremely complicated tax return. Fortunately I have a family member who is an accountant and loves new "challenges". Other people in similar situations spend several thousands a year to file their taxes.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Jane has lived and worked in France for 30 years drawing what she calls a "humble" salary. She has filed a tax return every year even though she earns significantly less than $106,000 a year." Hardly the 1%

She isn't the reason this article appeared in the BBC (it's effectively a reprinted press release, cf. Paul Graham's submarine). She also earns a good salary and is dropping citizenship basically in order not to have to fill out a form once a year. Either that or she's expecting a pay raise from her "humble" salary and will have to start paying a small amount of US tax. Either way, my sympathy dial isn't moving.

None of that puts her in the 1%. If she cared that much about tax she wouldn't be living in France. If you read the article you'd see it's because these people are having their bank accounts closed, or being unable to open them because of the onerous restrictions that Fatca puts on banks with expat American customers.
Post reply on HN