Why expat Americans are giving up their passports • Hacker News Board

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#201

Post by return0 » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:45 PM UTC

smazero wrote: post #199

The use of the term "expat" rather than "immigrant" is interesting. I read a piece in the guardian the other day which framed that distinction in terms of white vs non-white ( http://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-... ), but it's obviously a bit more complicated than that. I don't think the two terms are synonyms, but they are very close, and once you try to pick apart the differences, I think t…

There are rich arab or chinese expats in the west, are they called immigrants? I think expats refers to the temporary/revocable/definitely-not-forced status of the immigrant. In my greek native, expat and immigrant are used interchangably (ομογενής /μετανάστης)

That said, "expat" is the wrong term for someone who renounced his original citizenship. I guess they should be called "pats" now.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#202

Post by ceejayoz » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

mike_hearn wrote: post #114

timthelion wrote: post #24

I am an American living in Prague and will be among those to give up their citizenship. The new FBAR requirements and the recently pushed through changes that require foreign banks to report are really a huge burden. It is a significant legal risk to be an American overseas. The fines are insane for failiure to report, even if you owe no taxes! You can easilly land yourself with a $20 000 - $80 000 fine for having a…

> There are some benefits to being a US citizen, like that the army will rescue you if there is a civil war This is a common myth. If you don't intend to return to the USA there are no benefits to US citizenship, only downsides. The US may or may not rescue you if there's a civil war (see the fate of people in Yemen), but if they do, they will charge you for it at military rates you almost certainly cannot afford: ht…

> they will charge you for it at military rates you almost certainly cannot afford

Your link says "We charge you the equivalent of a full coach commercial fare on a comparable mode of transportation at the time that commercial travel ceases to be a viable option."

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#203

Post by kingosticks » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

klunger wrote: post #147

timthelion wrote: post #24

I am an American living in Prague and will be among those to give up their citizenship. The new FBAR requirements and the recently pushed through changes that require foreign banks to report are really a huge burden. It is a significant legal risk to be an American overseas. The fines are insane for failiure to report, even if you owe no taxes! You can easilly land yourself with a $20 000 - $80 000 fine for having a…

I am an American in Norway... I thought you only had to file FATCA for bank accounts that had more than $10,000 USD in them at some point in the past year. Not a few hundred. Are you sure about that? (if so, oh sh*t)

From https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Corporations/FATCA-Informatio...

Taxpayers with a total value of specified foreign financial assets below a certain threshold do not have to file Form 8938

From https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Corporations/Do-I-need-to-fil...

You must file Form 8938 if: 1. You are a specified individual. tick! 2. You have an interest in specified foreign financial assets required to be reported. tick! 3. The aggregate value of your specified foreign financial assets is more than the reporting thresholds that applies to you: If you are a taxpayer living abroad you must file if: You are filing a return other than a joint return and the total value of your specified foreign assets is more than $200,000 on the last day of the tax year or more than $300,000 at any time during the year

For once, the IRS pages on this topic seems pretty clear.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#204

Post by mike_hearn » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:48 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #157

mike_hearn wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, and I forgot the main one of course - lots of places won't let you become stateless. You need to be a citizen of another country already to give up your US citizenship. And that, in turn, is a very long term and difficult process.

This thread was originally about 'how the hell does the US think it has the right to tax people who haven't lived there for over 30 years?' You or I may disagree with those issues, but those people having rights as a US citizen and access to US consulate services may be why the US thinks it has a right to tax them.

It was pointed out elsewhere in this stories discussion that the Citizen Services section of the State Dept is "profitable". So there's no need to levy taxes to pay for embassies. Fees (like the $2000+ fee to renounce) more than covers their costs.

I am still failing to see what rights, if any, they actually get out of this arrangement. The right to vote ... except that the only issue that concerns them is the treatment of expats, and expat votes are spread around all districts meaning they are essentially ignorable. Not worth anything.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#205

Post by mike_hearn » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:50 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #202

mike_hearn wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are some benefits to being a US citizen, like that the army will rescue you if there is a civil war This is a common myth. If you don't intend to return to the USA there are no benefits to US citizenship, only downsides. The US may or may not rescue you if there's a civil war (see the fate of people in Yemen), but if they do, they will charge you for it at military rates you almost certainly cannot afford: ht…

> they will charge you for it at military rates you almost certainly cannot afford Your link says "We charge you the equivalent of a full coach commercial fare on a comparable mode of transportation at the time that commercial travel ceases to be a viable option."

Yeah, but they don't. I posted links to support that elsewhere.

Still, the original argument wasn't about total cost, it said that being evacuated was a service you get just for being a US citizen. Not the case.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#206

Post by mbesto » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:50 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #190

mbesto wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US economy and quality of life commands that premium. Note - My fiancee is British and I've lived for 4 years overseas in the EU (UK 3 years, DE for 1). As the tax code as an American begins to squeeze more and more, I've become more reluctant to "pay" that premium, but there are indeed aspects of American life and opportunity that don't currently exist in the EU.

> there are indeed aspects of American life and opportunity that don't currently exist in the EU. But which are those? As far as I can tell, the only meaningful one I can see is unrestricted access into the US, and the ability to vote for the most powerful government in the world. That's not nothing, but it doesn't have much impact on most people's everyday life, unlike stuff like healthcare and pensions. I suppose a…

I've never paid double taxes living in the EU/UK.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_equalization

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#207

Post by wlesieutre » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:50 PM UTC

nvarsj wrote: post #129

timthelion wrote: post #24

I am an American living in Prague and will be among those to give up their citizenship. The new FBAR requirements and the recently pushed through changes that require foreign banks to report are really a huge burden. It is a significant legal risk to be an American overseas. The fines are insane for failiure to report, even if you owe no taxes! You can easilly land yourself with a $20 000 - $80 000 fine for having a…

I'm also an expat, living in the UK. The FBAR isn't too bad at all, it takes 30 minutes to file electronically if your records are in order. The real burden is filing my annual taxes. I'm a contractor with a limited liability company, common setup in the UK. However in the US, this is treated as me having financial interest in a foreign C-Corp, which has an extremely complicated tax return. Fortunately I have a famil…

I've heard elsewhere that foreign banks were closing down accounts of American expats because the customers aren't worth the FATCA paperwork. Have you encountered any trouble with that?

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#208

Post by spangry » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:54 PM UTC

magicGLASSman wrote: post #99

maxerize wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I constantly have to remind myself that people who browse HN learn strongly libertarian and are mostly well-off white males. Otherwise, saying that the US quality of life exceeds that of the UK, Germany or Switzerland is just blatantly false.

saying "blatantly false" does not make something factual. Please provide and argument with evidence instead of blanket racist remarks.

Here you go. Latest UN Human Development Index rankings: http://hdr.undp.org/en/composite/HDI

  Switzerland: 3
  Germany: 6
  US: 8
  UK: 14

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#209

Post by Lawtonfogle » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:55 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #148

Ovid wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, no. The US has tax treaties with roughly 1/3rd of the countries in the world (source: https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International-Businesses/Unit... ). If you're not in one of those countries, too bad. Further, these tax treaties differ from country to country and don't always offer the same protections. Here, read the 42 page US/France tax treaty ( https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/france.pdf ) and try to…

> We're normal people who are being massively screwed by rhetoric in the US. Yup. Same goes for normal people who move the other way. The anti-foreign(er) consensus in the US political system/debate is almost as bad as the "tough on crime" madness. And of course that's reflected in what people think. I remember being in a discussion after an interesting EE380 session (so not exactly bottom of the pile) and one of the…

>I mentioned I was on an H1B and that what he said was illegal

The problem is that some companies break the law by playing around with job descriptions and job duties. There are people who aren't against immigration but who are against the H1B visas.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#210

Post by adekok » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:56 PM UTC

true_religion wrote: post #57

i_don_t_know wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're a permanent resident until you formally renounce permanent residency at a US embassy or consulate. Some may permit mailing in your green card, others require you to appear in person. However, the process is or was free when I went through it. I think there are other ways of losing permanent residence, but the only guaranteed ways are when you renounce or when the US takes it from you. Either way, you better ha…

I wonder. You can lose your PR status simply by: > Fail to file income tax returns while living outside of the United States for any period. [1] But they do require you report your loss of PR status to the IRS. So I wonder if failing to file thus losing your status would count as good enough to the IRS. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-green-card-granted/ma...

Can you use the systems rules to work around the system?

My guess would be "no". The rules are interpreted by the system to benefit the system. If this means that the rules are arbitrary, capricious, and inconsistent... so be it.