Why expat Americans are giving up their passports • Hacker News Board

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#181

Post by c4n4rd » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 1:58 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #22

dalke wrote: post #9

American citizens have to pay $2,350 to renounce citizenship? What kind of paperwork costs that much? (Or, why not just add more paperwork and charge $100K?) http://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/blog/renouncing-us-citiz... > 1. Consular officers must confirm that the potential renunciant fully understands the consequences of renunciation, including losing the right to reside in the United States without documentation…

That sounds about as hard as cancelling comcast.

Please... don't exaggerate :-)

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#182

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:03 PM UTC

amazon_not wrote: post #178

lhopki01 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in Nigeria during a period of violence when thousands died. One of my enduring memories was the reactions of the Americans living there at the time. They were so sure that the army would come and save them and when it didn't they were dumbfounded. When someone from the US eventually turned up after the violence had all died down all the US citizens were offered was the opportunity to be part of the convey out…

Movies perhaps?

yes, movies like Tears of the sun. considering the number of US citizens, they are all over planet and it's a rather unreasonable expectation.

generally US citizenship meant much more in the past than it means now since there are more interesting places to live (albeit in long term US might still prove as best spot... or not).

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#183

Post by c4n4rd » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:09 PM UTC

farslan wrote: post #54

Does this also affect H1B holder that are temporary living outside the US?

If you work for a USA company, yes - it does.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#184

Post by c2h5oh » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:09 PM UTC

geomark wrote: post #176

orbifold wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems rather strange to rescind citizenship because of tax issues, aren't there qualified tax advisors that can handle all of that for you? At least here in Germany they are quite affordable and usually pay for themselves because of the tax savings you get due to their advice. If you consult one you can also be rather confident that you don't accidentally forget about some new regulation.

For many people it isn't about taxes. It's the fact that due to FATCA they can't even have a bank account in the country where they have lived and worked for many years. Banks in some countries have closed the accounts of US citizens due to the cost of compliance with FATCA. Imagine suddenly being unable to cash your paycheck or pay your bills because as a US citizen you are a pariah to the banks of the country in wh…

Cashing a paycheck is largely non-issue as cheques are almost gone in Europe (except France, UK and Ireland - but they're soon to be gone there too) - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque#Europe

But it makes the problem even bigger, because there is a push to go cashless (like fines if you pay cash over a certain amount - starting around 10k euro) and it's working - Sweden has 40% less currency in circulation than 10 years ago.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#185

Post by tsukikage » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

So, is it time to throw some tea in the harbour now?

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#186

Post by geomark » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:14 PM UTC

c2h5oh wrote: post #184

geomark wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For many people it isn't about taxes. It's the fact that due to FATCA they can't even have a bank account in the country where they have lived and worked for many years. Banks in some countries have closed the accounts of US citizens due to the cost of compliance with FATCA. Imagine suddenly being unable to cash your paycheck or pay your bills because as a US citizen you are a pariah to the banks of the country in wh…

Cashing a paycheck is largely non-issue as cheques are almost gone in Europe (except France, UK and Ireland - but they're soon to be gone there too) - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque#Europe But it makes the problem even bigger, because there is a push to go cashless (like fines if you pay cash over a certain amount - starting around 10k euro) and it's working - Sweden has 40% less currency in circulation tha…

So you get can't paid at all because they don't issues checks, they direct deposit to your bank account, which you no longer have thanks to FATCA.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#187

Post by jerf » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:16 PM UTC

timthelion wrote: post #24

I am an American living in Prague and will be among those to give up their citizenship. The new FBAR requirements and the recently pushed through changes that require foreign banks to report are really a huge burden. It is a significant legal risk to be an American overseas. The fines are insane for failiure to report, even if you owe no taxes! You can easilly land yourself with a $20 000 - $80 000 fine for having a…

What austerity are you talking about? That's not a US thing. There's been no austerity here; government spending has continued fairly normal growth once you factor out the stimulus spending.

Although since that seems to be what a lot of EU governments are calling "austerity", perhaps we have had it.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#188

Post by dalke » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:16 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #157

mike_hearn wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, and I forgot the main one of course - lots of places won't let you become stateless. You need to be a citizen of another country already to give up your US citizenship. And that, in turn, is a very long term and difficult process.

This thread was originally about 'how the hell does the US think it has the right to tax people who haven't lived there for over 30 years?' You or I may disagree with those issues, but those people having rights as a US citizen and access to US consulate services may be why the US thinks it has a right to tax them.

To quote mike_hearn's earlier comment "You say this like other countries don't also offer those services. Almost every western country does, and none of them tax their citizens abroad."

I think your argument is a post hoc justification.

Plus, "access to US consulate services" makes no sense. Many if not most Americans living overseas pay no taxes to the US. The complaint is the hassle and expense of filing the paperwork, and the likelihood or at least worry about exorbitant fines.

Finally, who do you think uses those services more - American tourists and business people, or those who live in the country?

Elsewhere leoedin points out that 'The UK embeds the cost of consular protection and embassy services into the renewal cost of a passport - approximately £15 in 2010'. That sounds like it's more equitable, and it shows that consulate services are not expensive. I pay 20x that amount for my accountant to deal with my US taxes, and would gladly play a flat $100 "I live or travel overseas" fee instead.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#189

Post by dalke » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:17 PM UTC

c4n4rd wrote: post #180

dalke wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.justlanded.com/english/Czech-Republic/Czech-Repu... gives an idea of what's needed to become a Czech citizen. It's different for different countries in the EU.

Besides Prague being a beautiful place, what else made you decide to live there? I am thinking about living in Europe too.. but it has been difficult to decide. Thanks and cheers.

I'm not the one who moved to Prague.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#190

Post by mcv » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 2:20 PM UTC

mbesto wrote: post #48

jacquesm wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What premium is that over say being the holder of passport from the UK, NL, DE, FR, ES, IT, CH, SE, DK, NO, FI, BE or any one of a host of other countries that don't have such crazy tax rules?

The US economy and quality of life commands that premium. Note - My fiancee is British and I've lived for 4 years overseas in the EU (UK 3 years, DE for 1). As the tax code as an American begins to squeeze more and more, I've become more reluctant to "pay" that premium, but there are indeed aspects of American life and opportunity that don't currently exist in the EU.

> there are indeed aspects of American life and opportunity that don't currently exist in the EU.

But which are those? As far as I can tell, the only meaningful one I can see is unrestricted access into the US, and the ability to vote for the most powerful government in the world. That's not nothing, but it doesn't have much impact on most people's everyday life, unlike stuff like healthcare and pensions.

I suppose an American living in the EU does get to enjoy the best of both worlds in that regard, but is it really worth paying double taxes? Are there other aspects I'm missing?