Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 411 posts

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#61

Post by josh_fyi »

pmontra wrote: post #47

Every form I see about financial matters here in Italy has a checkbox that I must tick to state I'm not a US person. No financial institution wants to deal with them because of FACTA. An unintended consequence for sure and I hope they'll fix it. Still it's telling about the general attitude of lawmakers all around the world.

Right. Imagine if every financial form had 200 extra checkboxes -- dictated by the Mongolian Treasury, the Namibian Treasury, etc.

But that's not the case. Only the US imposes financial regulations on every bank in the world.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#62

Post by jacquesm »

mbesto wrote: post #48
jacquesm wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What premium is that over say being the holder of passport from the UK, NL, DE, FR, ES, IT, CH, SE, DK, NO, FI, BE or any one of a host of other countries that don't have such crazy tax rules?

The US economy and quality of life commands that premium. Note - My fiancee is British and I've lived for 4 years overseas in the EU (UK 3 years, DE for 1). As the tax code as an American begins to squeeze more and more, I've become more reluctant to "pay" that premium, but there are indeed aspects of American life and opportunity that don't currently exist in the EU.

> but there are indeed aspects of American life and opportunity that don't currently exist in the EU.

Indeed there are. Many in the EU would consider the 'life' part of that sentence a good thing.

As for opportunity, I've never really felt that the EU limited me in ways that I would find less in the USA, but that's just anecdote, not research.

Not all of life revolves around start-ups, and plenty of the upsides of the opportunity in the USA come with associated downsides.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#63

Post by josh_fyi »

orbifold wrote: post #59
timthelion wrote: post #24

I am an American living in Prague and will be among those to give up their citizenship. The new FBAR requirements and the recently pushed through changes that require foreign banks to report are really a huge burden. It is a significant legal risk to be an American overseas. The fines are insane for failiure to report, even if you owe no taxes! You can easilly land yourself with a $20 000 - $80 000 fine for having a…

It seems rather strange to rescind citizenship because of tax issues, aren't there qualified tax advisors that can handle all of that for you? At least here in Germany they are quite affordable and usually pay for themselves because of the tax savings you get due to their advice. If you consult one you can also be rather confident that you don't accidentally forget about some new regulation.

You need a tax advisor/accountant who is qualified in both the US and Germany and has knowledge of cross-jurisdiction issues. These people are expensive. Until now, only big corporations needed such advisors.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#64

Post by cpursley »

madaxe_again wrote: post #17

So, I know a us born billionaire who rescinded his citizenship last year to avoid fatca. He has successfully evaded both the US and UK tax authorities to the tune of half a billion or so, he tells me. The guy gives crazy amounts to philanthropic causes instead. He doesn't want his hard earned wealth pissed away by clueless bureaucrats. So. Anyone who tells you fatca has been a success is full of it. It penalises "nor…

> The guy gives crazy amounts to philanthropic causes instead.

This. As a someone who leans libertarian, folks give me the "you must be greedy" look when I mention that I have an issue with income taxation. Not at all - like your friend, I'm rather selective about where I donate my money - to causes that matter to me. I'm a generous person and consider the coercion of the state to be neither altruistic nor efficient.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#65

Post by cheatdeath »

arto wrote: post #16
Swizec wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it have such a premium? Having an EU passport works preeeetty well too.

Indeed: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/top-10-most-powerful-passport...

That list is out of date - there's an updated version on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_(document)#Visa_restricti...

Not sure if "powerful" is the right word either. It's more of a list of the best passports to have if you want to go on holidays. "Doesn't require a visa" usually means those countries don't require visas for short non-business trips (anything from 14 days to 6 months). E.g. you can visit the US with a German passport for 3 months for a holiday but it's extremely difficult to get a visa to move there indefinitely.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#66

Post by [deleted] »

jacquesm wrote: post #20
Ovid wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to break it to you, but if you're a non-US citizen but a permanent resident in the US, you're a "US person": https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/120.15 This means that you're completely subject to US tax law, even if you leave the US. Congratulations! You're now subject to FATCA!

Except of course that if and when he leaves he ceases to be that US person because he's no longer a permanent resident.

[deleted]

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#67

Post by jacquesm »

i_don_t_know wrote: post #35
jacquesm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except of course that if and when he leaves he ceases to be that US person because he's no longer a permanent resident.

You're a permanent resident until you formally renounce permanent residency at a US embassy or consulate. Some may permit mailing in your green card, others require you to appear in person. However, the process is or was free when I went through it. I think there are other ways of losing permanent residence, but the only guaranteed ways are when you renounce or when the US takes it from you. Either way, you better ha…

What sanctions are available to the USA in case of non-compliance if you do not ever return to the USA?

Personally I find all this 'citizen as property of the state' stuff to be rather revolting, and in direct contradiction of such sentence fragments as 'the land of the free'.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#68

Post by cpursley »

youngtaff wrote: post #33
madaxe_again wrote: post #17

So, I know a us born billionaire who rescinded his citizenship last year to avoid fatca. He has successfully evaded both the US and UK tax authorities to the tune of half a billion or so, he tells me. The guy gives crazy amounts to philanthropic causes instead. He doesn't want his hard earned wealth pissed away by clueless bureaucrats. So. Anyone who tells you fatca has been a success is full of it. It penalises "nor…

>He doesn't want his hard earned wealth pissed away by clueless bureaucrats. Yeh, but guess he likes driving on roads and making use of many of the other public services taxes pay for

Just because one drives on government roads does not mean that they believe that is how things should be.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#69

Post by masklinn »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #15

I don't even have to click to know what this is about. God damn government wants to tax me despite being overseas. Don't get me wrong here. I love my country but hot damn do I hate our government. HK or UK or Canadian passport would probably be nearly as good but without any of the bullshit.

> I don't even have to click to know what this is about. God damn government wants to tax me despite being overseas.

So turns out you don't know what this is about. It's not about the century-old citizenship-based taxation, it's about the additional legal and bureaucratic overhead of FATCA on both the citizen and the structures around them e.g. non-US banks refusing to deal with US citizens because they don't want to deal with the legal and financial risk of FATCA.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#70

Post by cpursley »

crdoconnor wrote: post #13

>Her voice cracks and her eyes well up. She is in the process of relinquishing her American nationality. Soon she'll visit the US embassy formally to renounce her citizenship, she says, under duress. >"I'm very proud of being an American. It's what I am when I look in the mirror. >"If it weren't for Fatca [the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act] and the decision by the bank, I'd never be doing this. Never ever. It's…

The US State Department's own numbers show that it is not the 1% relinquishing citizenship, It's normal Americans living and working overseas for long periods of time. These people are prevented from basic logistics required for having a life like opening and using a checking account.

I think of it this way: how insane would it be if my wife, a Russian citizen and US permanent resident who's lived and worked in the US for 12 years, could not open a checking account and was required by law to file taxes to the Russian Federation for her American high school teaching job?

Post reply on HN