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Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

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Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#121
post #52

I love the idea of reading articles from this time period on this topic. This article though, with Mr A/B/C/... was bit much to handle though. Just felt much too speculative.

I would bet a barrel of reichmarks that these were real people. In fact, I'm absolutely certain that "Mr. C" is the "saturnine" Lawrence Dennis, a former State Department diplomat and Wall Street advisor considered the guiding intellect of 1930s American fascism. Fascinatingly, Dennis didn't grow up "Southern white trash." No, he actually was a famous African-American child preacher, a background that he did hide suc…

Not entirely welcomed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Dennis#Sedition_trial

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#122
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would bet a barrel of reichmarks that these were real people. In fact, I'm absolutely certain that "Mr. C" is the "saturnine" Lawrence Dennis, a former State Department diplomat and Wall Street advisor considered the guiding intellect of 1930s American fascism. Fascinatingly, Dennis didn't grow up "Southern white trash." No, he actually was a famous African-American child preacher, a background that he did hide suc…

Not entirely welcomed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Dennis#Sedition_trial

Yep; the other irony was that his prosecutor was O. John Rogge, one of the great liberal crusading attorneys of the day, who insisted on bringin charges in order to drag militant racism into the light of day. So Dennis, spurred by his hatred for American racism, made common cause with thuggish men who would have happily hanged him from a tree, and as a result was prosecuted by a man who otherwise would have been his natural political and moral ally. A complex man, Lawrence Dennis. (There is one biography available, The Color of Fascism, which is a little too clunky to be authoritative, but which is well worth reading. An equally unusual journey is that of Bayard Rustin, an openly gay African American civil rights activist who studied under Gandhi, introduced MLK to the theory of nonviolent activism, and ended up part of the neoconservative movement in the Reagan administration.)

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#123
post #115
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say that Angela Merkels CDU "never won an election"? That would be a misleading statement when talking about a multi-party system rather than a two-party system. The Nazi party itself did not have an absolute majority at any point, but they gained power by getting support from a majority in parliament, representing a majority of the voters. The power was achieved legitimately, but then it was used to disman…

Is it a "misuse" of democratic power to dismantle the democratic system ? Also, can you provide a link to that act of parliament ? I wonder about what happened there.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#124
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The form of your argument seems to be that if a policy has a race/sex disparity in impact then it's inherently racist/sexist. Let's go for the reductio ad absurdum. We have a choice between two policies. The first says if you're accused of being a child's parent and you can prove with a genetic test that you aren't then you don't have to pay child support. The second says if you're accused of being a child's parent t…

> The form of your argument seems to be that if a policy has a race/sex disparity in impact then it's inherently racist/sexist. No, the form of my argument is that a policy can be implicitly racist without being explicitly racist. A law banning rap music from the radio won't appear racist if your only criteria for a racist policy is explicitly mentioning race. This is why I included the Atwater quote.

> the form of my argument is that a policy can be implicitly racist without being explicitly racist.

An explicit policy like officially-segregated schools is objectively racist. "Implicitly racist" is completely subjective.

The Atwater quote kind of makes the point. Is lowering taxes a racist policy? Nothing about the policy is different just because you can find some racist who supports it specifically because they know it will have a disparate impact. So you are implying that any policy with a disparate impact is "implicitly" racist, because a racist might support it for only that reason.

But that makes the definition of "racist" so broad that it loses all meaning. It makes the law against marijuana racist but also the law against speeding and the law against felons possessing a handgun.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#125
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem like it at all. Things she apparently wrote in 1946: The West experienced moments of doubt, Thompson wrote, in which the outcome of communist belief and behavior was questioned: "Can communist cultism, organized like a medieval secret order, with a priesthood, a police and an inquisition, reform itself into a modem, liberal, democratic movement?" Why, during the war, did communist propagandists throug…

Ah, but that was 1946. The (American) party line had changed -- most American liberals were anti-Stalinist in 1946. A quick google search turns up this from 1943: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11332745 "Dorothy Thompson, the well-known columnist, writes: 'Russia does not want to make an isolationist policy. Russia wants a friendly Europe in a friendly world, with a system of collective security. There are s…

That's extremely thin gruel. You seem to want to paint any whiff of Russia/Soviet sympathy as the equivalent of 'Stalin apologist' and reaching even further, an equivalent to being a Nazi sympathizer. I don't think that's a view that can easily be factually rather than ideologically supported.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#126
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The form of your argument seems to be that if a policy has a race/sex disparity in impact then it's inherently racist/sexist. No, the form of my argument is that a policy can be implicitly racist without being explicitly racist. A law banning rap music from the radio won't appear racist if your only criteria for a racist policy is explicitly mentioning race. This is why I included the Atwater quote.

> the form of my argument is that a policy can be implicitly racist without being explicitly racist. An explicit policy like officially-segregated schools is objectively racist. "Implicitly racist" is completely subjective. The Atwater quote kind of makes the point. Is lowering taxes a racist policy? Nothing about the policy is different just because you can find some racist who supports it specifically because they…

> "Implicitly racist" is completely subjective.

"Implicitly racist" is far from being completely subjective. A law banning US citizens whose ancestors lived in Africa 500 years ago from voting isn't explicitly racist: one could argue that it's based purely on geography and that ancestry and geography are only incidentally linked. It's implicitly racist given an understanding of the context in which it is applied.

Taken out of context, the War on Drugs can presented as race-neutral. You can describe the laws as they are written and stop there. This is not an honest discussion of the War on Drugs. We're not just talking about laws, we're talking about enforcement. Look at the data. Look at the statistics. I'm not just saying that.

http://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/NSDUHresultsP... 2013 Drug usage rates, by race

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/... 2014 Drug abuse violation rates, by race

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/... 2014 Drug abuse violations, by category

http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-02.pdf 2010 US Census, by race

This tells me that the ratio of Whites to Blacks in the U.S. is roughly ~6:1. The ratio of drug use between Whites and Blacks is ~1:1. The ratio of drug abuse violations between Whites and Blacks is ~2:1. Do you agree that these figures are correct? If so, how do you explain the discrepancy between usage vs violations between Whites and Blacks? Looking for an honest analysis. My conclusion was that the laws and policies which constitute the War on Drugs have disproportionately affected Blacks. CMV.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#127
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the form of my argument is that a policy can be implicitly racist without being explicitly racist. An explicit policy like officially-segregated schools is objectively racist. "Implicitly racist" is completely subjective. The Atwater quote kind of makes the point. Is lowering taxes a racist policy? Nothing about the policy is different just because you can find some racist who supports it specifically because they…

> "Implicitly racist" is completely subjective. "Implicitly racist" is far from being completely subjective. A law banning US citizens whose ancestors lived in Africa 500 years ago from voting isn't explicitly racist: one could argue that it's based purely on geography and that ancestry and geography are only incidentally linked. It's implicitly racist given an understanding of the context in which it is applied. Tak…

[deleted]

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant Mr D: "He spends his time at the game of seeing what he can get away with. He is constantly arrested for speeding and his mother pays the fines. He has been ruthless toward two wives and his mother pays the alimony. His life is spent in sensation-seeking and theatricality. He is utterly inconsiderate of everybody. He is very good-looking, in a vacuous, cavalier way, and inordinately vain. He would certainly f…

I think of D as a sociopath who could be Nazi or "patriot" depending on which one would give him current advantage.

I wonder if there is any real limit to what positions such a person would take. In every company I've ever worked for there's several examples of this sort of person and ... I don't think I've ever even seen one with their own political opinion. Personal advancement, or the potential for it, determines their position in any argument, including political ones.

These days that usually makes them argue for "diversity" (taken to corporate insanity extremes, like every other position).

I would agree with the article that given the environment in the 1930's that would probably have made them nazis. But this has nothing to do with the content of these ideologies, only with their relative success.

But what I find myself at very strong odds with is the smart person who clawed his way up and finds himself beneath a glass ceiling, Mr. C. They usually have a relatively insane political opinion that indeed originates from some past humiliation. But that nearly always makes them some sort of extremist socialist or outright marxist if they were poor in their childhood, or extreme laissez-faire when not. And frankly, what is wrong with holding such an opinion due to having had to endure serious hardship or humiliation as a result (having been the rich kid in a poor school or a poor kid in a rich school would pretty much guarantee such a position, no ?). I would imagine that if indeed such a person became a nazi, one confrontation with a nazi "type D" would cure him of such an affliction, as he'd immediately recognize the ideology for what it is. Either such guys are nihilists or they have some insane party affiliation.

Given the thousands of political parties in the Weimar republic, I'd be much less surprised to find this Mr. C an avid supporter of one of the many "20 party members and only their mothers vote for them" ideologies that the Weimar republic boasted.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#129
post #47
post #5

The essence of any totalitarian strategy is to seize some resources, invent a necessarily preposterous myth, then in exchange for demonstrating belief in the myth, re-distribute the resources arbitrarily among a minority of people who are easily replaceable and know it. The secret is to then reward people from the majority for denouncing and replacing members of the minority for not being zealous enough, so that they…

This is why the founders of the US intentionally tried to design the country to severely restrict the power of the federal government / allow the states to handle many issues that aren't explicitly national matters. I'm not talking about things like education or marriage, which you might [i]think[/i] should be national issues, but rather things like interstate roads and national defense, which are interstate issues b…

I think you're reaching quite a bit with this comment.

The people who drafted the constitution actually pushed for a Federal government that was larger far more powerful than the previous Articles of Confederation did. And they continued set up precedents while they were in office for a larger and more unified government than many of the States likely expected. They also recognized that a modern Democracy was a bit of an experiment compared to the rest of the world and were unable/unwilling to make it too large too soon.

And most of U.S. history seems to agree with this approach and it shows that a large open government is less likely to be abused than a small government which can be captured and rigged by a few groups or even individuals. It's the separation of powers between branches of the government, more than the size and powers of the Feds vs. the States that helps to limit the chance for dictatorship.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#130
post #104
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciated the dispassionate detachment of the comment. Like others, I'm a little suspicious of your "feminism annexed academia" bit (though not in the same kneejerky way). But what I really wonder is, could you expand on "why Occupy failed?" I've never really viewed it through that lens. Here, I'll give it a go. Certainly the unifying mythos was there - the 1%/the 99% - and by the way this isn't preposterous. But…

The point of a preposterous myth is that it is a wedge issue that allows the majority to identify "enemies" and dangerous dissidents, because intelligent people just can't help themselves. It creates a target rich environment for the truly contemptible who will inform on, denounce, and betray their neighbors for a few extra rations or a commendation from some apparatchik, maybe just a fellowship. An absurd dogma caus…

This is not very smart political thinking, but great for making an entertaining argument on the Internet. Other than ISIS, none of the movements you listed could be considered revolutionary in terms of actually changing forms of government.

1. Occupy Wall Street was about the financial crisis in '08. People were angry that the banks got bailed out and everyone else just got (arguably) left out. It went away when the economy finally improved, though there is still enough anger to fuel at least one Presidential campaign.

2. Feminism is about equal jobs and rights for women (including in politics). While I'm sure some of the men had ulterior motives, alot more of them probably just listened to what the women were actually saying and realized that they had a point. Why should half the population be treated worse than the other half? All of your other complaints about a "pro-victim" academic curriculum, or whatever you're trying to say here, are just nonsense. Academics have always been weird. The politics behind universities are also weird, but ultimately small stakes and hardly "revolutionary". People don't face down the police and the army because their college doesn't have the right sort of Women's studies program.

3. BLM is about one segment of the population being prosecuted, hurt, and killed by police more than any other group of people. "Stop shooting us" is a powerful message, especially when it's backed up by numbers and video, but it's not revolutionary. I would also add that the problem has been made worse by the Drug war and the prison-industrial complex so what's surprising is that it hasn't happened sooner and with more people backing it.

4. Trump just wants to be President. His supporters are basically the anti-Occupy Wall Street crowd. They're angry about job prospects (especially since 2008), but they blame immigrants and Democrats (+ NAFTA, GATT, etc.) rather than rich bankers. It's not something we've seen at this level since the 1900s or earlier, but it's not new and they don't really seem to want to change anything politically with the way government works.

TL;DR: your thesis doesn't seem to hold up once you examine why each movement exists and what it's trying to do. Other than ISIS, but basically they're just Saddam Hussein's old posse with some new faces.

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