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Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

harpers.org

111–120 of 132 posts

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#111
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nazi party was certainly the winner or the election in July 1932, where it became the largest party in the parliament. In March 1933 elections it became even larger, with 44% more than twice the size of the second largest party, the SPD. It just never had an absolute majority - the parliamentary act which effectively gave the party dictatorial powers was supported by the conservative and center parties.

I guess we can argue over what it means for a political party to win, but the Nazi party were never able to gain the support of the majority of the German people.

Would you say that Angela Merkels CDU "never won an election"? That would be a misleading statement when talking about a multi-party system rather than a two-party system.

The Nazi party itself did not have an absolute majority at any point, but they gained power by getting support from a majority in parliament, representing a majority of the voters. The power was achieved legitimately, but then it was used to dismantle the democratic system.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#112
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciated the dispassionate detachment of the comment. Like others, I'm a little suspicious of your "feminism annexed academia" bit (though not in the same kneejerky way). But what I really wonder is, could you expand on "why Occupy failed?" I've never really viewed it through that lens. Here, I'll give it a go. Certainly the unifying mythos was there - the 1%/the 99% - and by the way this isn't preposterous. But…

Can you explain to me why the institute of applied physics is now looking for two research assistants in gender studies? It's 19 hours and 55 minute of work every week with a 3 year contract to do gender studies in a physics department. Do you know that the Nazis had a field for facial recognition of Jewish features on faces? https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...

They won’t be doing physics. They will be doing (in the broadest sense) empirical social research with a focus on gender and physics, i.e. why are people with certain genders deciding to go into physics or not.

Are you really surprised that universities are looking for researchers researching all kinds of things? Someone I know just got a (post-doc) job researching social comparison theory and she can pretty much do whatever she wants in that field. That’s not even socially relevant, it’s merely interesting (nothing wrong with that).

Given how socially relevant this topic is (i.e. why do women decide against going into physics or even leave physics? How can we attract more women?) I’m really quite confused why you turn your nose at some poorly paid social research job looking into this for two days a week …

Social research is not luxurious. It’s badly paid, the methods at our disposal suck, the topic and subject (human brains and how they interact with each other) is fucking complex as hell, we don’t even know how to deal with it … it ain’t easy. Just so you know.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#113
post #32

Written by Dorothy Thompson, first journalist kicked out of Nazi Germany. She also said: "No people ever recognize their dictator in advance. He never stands for election on the platform of dictatorship. He always represents himself as the instrument [of] the Incorporated National Will. ... When our dictator turns up you can depend on it that he will be one of the boys, and he will stand for everything traditionally…

er no Hitlers position was that Germany needed a dictator and the NAZIs ran on that platform.

The exact program:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program#The...

I imagine you're talking about point 25:

"For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration."

Given what happened in Germany's Weimar republic, decades-long destruction (mass firings) of workers and the resulting impact on the middle class as the direct result of foreign-imposed costs "for reparations for the war".

Given all this it is easy to see why this program would have the success it did.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#114
post #70

Very thought provoking. In spirit, it reminds me of The True Believer [1], published about a decade later. Take Nazism and replace it with any other movement of discontent (just or unjust), and you have a general critique of mass movements a la Hoffer. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer

Interesting, thanks for the link. This part strikes me as particularly relevant to the current state of things in the US, especially for blue collar/middle class: The "New Poor" are the most likely source of converts for mass movements/for they recall their former wealth with resentment and blame others for their current misfortune. Examples include the mass evictions of relatively prosperous tenants during the Engli…

It's weird how this mirrors what you see with terrorists. Terrorists are middle-class or upper-middle-class with very, very few poor among them.

I don't think that the "daily struggle for survival" is it. Rather I think that the fact that poor are constantly forced to confront themselves with reality and living with others that makes them less likely to join movements like this.

Also, as a worker you'd have direct contact with members of this party (because you don't get to choose the people you hang out with). It is much, much harder to tell yourself a fictional story about what drives them. About what they'd do if given power. By contrast you regularly find insane positions among the upper classes. How hard is it to find an upper-middle-class or higher Marxist on a university campus ? Not very hard, despite the fact that he wouldn't be there in the system they advocate. Hell, there's Malthusians among them too, whereas I've yet to meet the first poor worker defending the virtues of killing of "enough" of the human race for a "sustainable population of Earth" to me.

Having illusions about "grandeur" of race, of inherent virtues of one group versus another, about the "good of the human race", ... is far easier when you're not confronted with the underbelly of any city on a daily basis ... when you're only confronted with who you choose to be confronted with.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#115
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we can argue over what it means for a political party to win, but the Nazi party were never able to gain the support of the majority of the German people.

Would you say that Angela Merkels CDU "never won an election"? That would be a misleading statement when talking about a multi-party system rather than a two-party system. The Nazi party itself did not have an absolute majority at any point, but they gained power by getting support from a majority in parliament, representing a majority of the voters. The power was achieved legitimately, but then it was used to disman…

Is it a "misuse" of democratic power to dismantle the democratic system ?

Also, can you provide a link to that act of parliament ? I wonder about what happened there.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#116
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we can argue over what it means for a political party to win, but the Nazi party were never able to gain the support of the majority of the German people.

Would you say that Angela Merkels CDU "never won an election"? That would be a misleading statement when talking about a multi-party system rather than a two-party system. The Nazi party itself did not have an absolute majority at any point, but they gained power by getting support from a majority in parliament, representing a majority of the voters. The power was achieved legitimately, but then it was used to disman…

I actually think Angela and the CDU have never won an election (especially if you exclude the CSU) - she just managed to get more votes than the SPD. If she led a coalition before an election that then won then I would consider her the winner, but just putting together a coalition after the election rather undermines any majority support.

Having said all this Hitler did manage to work the Weimar system so he was able to grab total power - he always seemed to be proud that his rule was "legal".

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#117
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> No people ever recognize their dictator in advance. He never stands for election on the platform of dictatorship. She obviously never imagined the state of American politics today. A good chunk of them now openly want a "strongman" in the high office. The degree to which they want to be bullied by those they elect boarders on socio-political masochism. So I disagree with Thompson. To say that people don't see the…

To be a little less speculatively brazen, consider Putin, who got elected (well, if he didn't totally cheat) on a campaign of resorting the Soviet dictatorship.

Elected? Technically I suppose so, but he was groomed as Yeltsin's successor.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#118
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thompson, like many (if not most) American journalists of her time, was a Stalin apologist in the Duranty circle: http://spartacus-educational.com/USAthompsonD.htm I'm not sure any intellectual who collaborated with Hitler should get points for warning the world about Stalin. Or vice versa. If Harper's had written an article called "Who Goes Bolshevik" in 1941, it could have been much shorter: "pretty much everyone."…

I don't know the details but that link doesn't come close to establishing that she was a Stalin apologist.

It doesn't seem like it at all. Things she apparently wrote in 1946:

The West experienced moments of doubt, Thompson wrote, in which the outcome of communist belief and behavior was questioned: "Can communist cultism, organized like a medieval secret order, with a priesthood, a police and an inquisition, reform itself into a modem, liberal, democratic movement?" Why, during the war, did communist propagandists throughout the world demand an immediate "second front", an attack on heavily fortified Western Europe by the United States and Great Britain? "Did these obedient claques care nothing for the lives of American boys? Were they listening to any voices but the voice of Stalin?" "Yet, we said: No", Thompson continued. "We shall prove our confidence, trust and trustworthiness. We shall hold faith that it will not be betrayed. Loyalty, we said, begets loyalty." But as Germany collapsed, the Soviet Union began "reversing every wartime pledge and policy. And not only was the quarter of a century of communist despotism to be fastened again upon the necks of the long suffering, heroically,enduring, eternally,hoping, eternally,serving Russian people -but naked and unashamed it was seeking new people to subject. "

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#119
post #118
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the details but that link doesn't come close to establishing that she was a Stalin apologist.

It doesn't seem like it at all. Things she apparently wrote in 1946: The West experienced moments of doubt, Thompson wrote, in which the outcome of communist belief and behavior was questioned: "Can communist cultism, organized like a medieval secret order, with a priesthood, a police and an inquisition, reform itself into a modem, liberal, democratic movement?" Why, during the war, did communist propagandists throug…

Ah, but that was 1946. The (American) party line had changed -- most American liberals were anti-Stalinist in 1946.

A quick google search turns up this from 1943:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11332745

"Dorothy Thompson, the well-known columnist, writes: 'Russia does not want to make an isolationist policy. Russia wants a friendly Europe in a friendly world, with a system of collective security. There are signs of such hostility in both Europe and America to Russia that it gives Russian leadership some reason for suspicion. As things look at present, it is by no means certain that defeat of Germany will assure a non-Fascist Europe or one prepared to adopt a good-neighbor policy toward Russia."

Her views in 1946 are standard 1946 post-FDR New Dealism (after the Anglo-Soviet split); her views in 1943 are standard 1943 New Dealism. You're just hearing the party line; God only knows what she actually thought, and when.

It would be much easier to fight the memory hole if we didn't have these ridiculous copyright laws, but a lot of original WWII propaganda (not cherry-picked by modern hagiographers) remains on line. It's often pretty appalling reading.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#120
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thompson, like many (if not most) American journalists of her time, was a Stalin apologist in the Duranty circle: http://spartacus-educational.com/USAthompsonD.htm I'm not sure any intellectual who collaborated with Hitler should get points for warning the world about Stalin. Or vice versa. If Harper's had written an article called "Who Goes Bolshevik" in 1941, it could have been much shorter: "pretty much everyone."…

I don't know the details but that link doesn't come close to establishing that she was a Stalin apologist.

I recommend Malcolm Muggeridge's autobiography for a compelling look at the circle of Western journalists in Moscow in the '20s and '30s, of which Muggeridge was a part. Scott Alexander has a good review:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/08/11/book-review-chronicles-...

You either stayed in that circle or dropped out; there was no in-between. Of the reporters listed in the link, W.H. Chamberlin is the only other one who defected. Duranty (whose Pulitzer the NYT still refuses to return) was the norm, not the exception.

Also note that Thompson was part of the most bloodthirsty wing of New Dealists (eg, Rex Stout, also seen in the link) who supported prewar and postwar anti-German atrocities. It was certainly Nazi policy from 1941-45 to kill as many Jews as physically possible, but it was also Allied policy from 1941-45 to kill as many Germans as physically possible -- and that policy by no means stopped on a dime in May 1945:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_in_occupied_Germany

A real and complete moral reckoning for the period has yet to come, and will be more interested in our crimes than those of our defeated enemies.

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