iPhones 'disabled' if Apple detects third-party repairs • Hacker News Board

Re: iPhones 'disabled' if Apple detects third-party repairs

#291

Post by CamperBob2 » Sat, Feb 06, 2016, 8:36 PM UTC

Reason077 wrote: post #103

interpol_p wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems more like short sightedness than "petty revenge." The new home button hardware can't be securely validated, and a future OS update fails on the unexpected condition of invalid Touch ID hardware. I can imagine that this wasn't a prioritised testing scenario, likely not even considered by Apple when developing iOS. It's a lousy way to fail — the phone should just disable Touch ID and Apple Pay, and anything that…

There's a lot of stuff that depends on the secure element - in fact the phone would be quite useless without it. In fact, when you first reboot your phone, even contacts cannot be accessed until you authenticate with your passcode to unlock the secure element. Incoming text messages only show the phone number. You're right, however - a Touch ID sensor that cannot be verified should not brick the phone. Apple should j…

In fact, when you first reboot your phone, even contacts cannot be accessed until you authenticate with your passcode to unlock the secure element.

I don't have a password on my iPhone. I don't need one, because I don't store any critical data on the phone, or spend any significant time in environments where it's likely to be stolen. And I guess I'm naive enough to assume that no one from the NSA Tailored Operations department is going to sneak into my bedroom at night and install a malicious fingerprint sensor.

So, no, there is absolutely no reason for Apple to brick my entire iPhone if the sensor fails validation. They should act to maintain the level of security chosen by the user... no more, no less.

Re: iPhones 'disabled' if Apple detects third-party repairs

#292

Post by CamperBob2 » Sat, Feb 06, 2016, 8:37 PM UTC

cududa wrote: post #275

tim333 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they can issue an auth code for apple hardware then presumably it's possible to issue one for non apple hardware. They just have to make some effort to confirm the owner of the phone has it rather than a thief.

I'm sure no nation-state level actor would ever infiltrate this process..

At which point you have much bigger problems than a compromised iPhone.

Re: iPhones 'disabled' if Apple detects third-party repairs

#293

Post by JeremyBanks » Sat, Feb 06, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #292

cududa wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure no nation-state level actor would ever infiltrate this process..

At which point you have much bigger problems than a compromised iPhone.

Therefore... Apple shouldn't try to protect you?

Re: iPhones 'disabled' if Apple detects third-party repairs

#294

Post by Sanddancer » Sat, Feb 06, 2016, 9:15 PM UTC

atirip wrote: post #100

jacquesm wrote: post #4

It's totally dumb that a functioning phone is bricked by an update because of repairs done in the past. Imagine the same thing happening to your car. "Sorry sir, the software update done to your car has now disabled the vehicle because in the past someone not related to x (insert name of car company here) has repaired it, your car is now junk (you can't even resell it) and you'll have to buy a new one". It's just pet…

What if that "repair" was done by NSA, CIA, etc? Should the phone boot like nothing happened? Seriously?

Looking at teardowns, like the one at ifixit [1], the touch id sensor seems to be a pretty standard imaging sensor that heads to an NXP chip. I'd be willing to bet that the encryption of the print happens on the nxp chip instead of the imager, so if the NSA/whoever were doing a "repair", they'd probably just put an MiTM chip on that insecure path for later playback. Against a state actor, Touch ID is a triviality.

[1] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone+5s+Teardown/17383

Re: iPhones 'disabled' if Apple detects third-party repairs

#295

Post by mikeash » Sat, Feb 06, 2016, 9:15 PM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #259

jdhawk wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldnt it be more logical to simply disable the Touch Functionality and treat it like a Pre-TouchID button when not replaced by Apple with an OEM part?

Why? Then the user is left guessing why their phone is acting like it has no TouchID when it does.

If you get your phone repaired and TouchID no longer works when you get it back then it's not going to take a genius to put two and two together and figure out that it might be related to the repair.

Re: iPhones 'disabled' if Apple detects third-party repairs

#296

Post by alextgordon » Sat, Feb 06, 2016, 9:16 PM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #288

qb45 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Touch ID sensor has access to the iPhone Security Enclave, where fingerprint data is kept. A malicious sensor could, hypothetically, steal fingerprints from an iPhone user unknowingly. No, the CPU reads encrypted data from the sensor and sends them to the SE for decryption and analysis. See the PDF linked here by somebody. What a malicious sensor could do is store user's fingerprint for retrieval by unauthorize…

What a malicious sensor could do is store user's fingerprint for retrieval by unauthorized parties. Of course, taking advantage of the exploit in question requires the phone to be stolen by an extremely sophisticated (if not state-level) bad guy, altered by installation of a malicious sensor that has never been documented to exist in the wild, then recovered by the owner, and then stolen again at a later date. All to…

Today's state-level agency is tomorrow's small town police department, and next week's street criminal. Attacks only get better.

Also, Apple is not only designing phones for you and me, but for businesses who nowadays are the target of state-level security agencies.

Clearly Apple fudged the implementation of this feature, and it's a PR nightmare, but all evidence points to their intentions being genuine.

Re: iPhones 'disabled' if Apple detects third-party repairs

#297

Post by yyin » Sat, Feb 06, 2016, 9:17 PM UTC

tristanj wrote: post #255

I posted this earlier today, but the current article (from bbc.co.uk) does a poor job covering the issue. In summary, Apple iOS uses a validation system to ensure Touch ID sensor is not maliciously replaced or modified. The Touch ID sensor has access to the iPhone Security Enclave, where fingerprint data is kept. A malicious sensor could, hypothetically, steal fingerprints from an iPhone user unknowingly. This could…

What if the "owner" of the device, i.e. the person who paid her hard-earned wages to "own" it, is not interested in using the "TouchID" feature?

Is there an untapped niche for a similarly-sized single board computer (not several computers, baseband processor, SIM card that runs code, etc. jammed into a hermetically sealed casing that is worthy of being in the Museum for Modern Art) that just does simple simpler, "boring", useless things like send and receive packets, read, write and store files, etc.

A pocket-sized computer that a user can not just rent but _pwn_, that does not make gratuitous network connections to some "mothership" and allow for easy monitoring and remote control by a third party, and that does not brick itself if it's casing is opened. A computer that can be, to the fullest extent possible via open source software, controlled entirely by the user.

Who knows maybe a person could turn such a small computer into "a device for sending and receiving text, images, sound and video over a network, such as the internet."

Nah, there would be no use for such a thing. Only a device _that can handle payments_ is worth using to send and receive text, images, audio and video.

What is the point of a device used to communicate, e.g., a "phone", if it cannot also be used to spend money?

Re: iPhones 'disabled' if Apple detects third-party repairs

#298

Post by CamperBob2 » Sat, Feb 06, 2016, 9:26 PM UTC

JeremyBanks wrote: post #293

CamperBob2 wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At which point you have much bigger problems than a compromised iPhone.

Therefore... Apple shouldn't try to protect you?

Only to the extent I protect my own data. If I don't use the fingerprint scanner (or even a simple password), don't brick my phone because the fingerprint scanner failed validation.

Really, this seems pretty straightforward. "Security," while always a noble cause, is not an excuse to add gratuitous points of failure to a system.

Re: iPhones 'disabled' if Apple detects third-party repairs

#299

Post by im2w1l » Sat, Feb 06, 2016, 10:00 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #18

minikites wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call it what it actually is: short sighted, greedy, foolish, etc. Don't use a word that puts down people with disabilities.

I'm sorry, I did not mean to offend anybody but my reading of the word is that it has two meanings, one of which is 'stupid or dumb'. I'll update the comment.

They don't want you to be able to say stupid or dumb either

Re: iPhones 'disabled' if Apple detects third-party repairs

#300

Post by Sanddancer » Sat, Feb 06, 2016, 10:15 PM UTC

dawnerd wrote: post #194

atirip wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if that "repair" was done by NSA, CIA, etc? Should the phone boot like nothing happened? Seriously?

Hell, they could, on boot, display a message with something like "This phone contains contains a non genuine apple part" Then the question is, could the NSA/CIA/etc trick the phone into thinking the repair was valid?

Almost certainly so. Decap the chip, pull the flash contents out to get the key, etc, flash a new backdoored chip, you're done. Hobbyists have been decapping chips and pulling flash for a while, so this is certainly not beyond the abilities of the NSA/CIA/etc. You wouldn't need the exact same make of chip, just one that presents itself as the same.