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ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

z.cash

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Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#91
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Taking away" is interesting language. The ability to transfer money without either meeting in person (meetings can be surveilled) or generating records subject to disclosure (shell companies and laundering schemes can be deciphered through forensic accounting) is unprecedented. We've never lived in a time when people had cryptographic certainty of the secrecy of their transactions.

Cash and dead drops provide both of those properties. There are many other ways to investigate crimes. Just because the internet is new doesn't mean that human rights don't apply for this new communication medium.

Government-impervious money transfer as a human right is nebulous at best. The internet has not changed the legal or ethical status of money laundering. At best you could say it has always been a human right, but it's certainly never existed in the US or Western Europe.

Cash transactions carry substantial risk: both parties must be physically present in some place to make the deal. They can be tailed, the meeting place can be under surveillance, they can be raided, they can murder each other and run, etc. It's also impractical to deal with large amounts of cash due to the risk of robbery/theft (including civil forfeiture), and legitimate entities won't take suitcases full of cash for large purchases. Infiltrating and exfiltrating large amounts of money from the legitimate banking system is also very likely to leave traces that can be understood by sufficiently skilled/motivated forensic accountants.

Whereas flipping some bytes in the firehose of cryptographically secure bytes already coming in and out of every home is undetectable and basically risk-free.

Some much more concrete human rights are ensured through taxation: food, shelter, water, health care, police, education, national defense, etc. If you make taxation effectively optional by running a perfect, free money-laundering system, some of them may have to go.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#92
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surveilling and busting in-person deals with suitcases full of cash was the bread and butter of law enforcement for decades, so much so that it's a Hollywood trope.

Sure, but it's not like we're all keeping records of cash transactions for the mandarins to go through later when they become annoyed.

Businesses which operate mostly or exclusively in cash are pretty much guaranteed regular IRS audits, which they'll need damn good records to survive.

Doing a significant volume of cash transactions with any financial institution also causes it to send a Suspicious Activity Report [0] to the federal government, which greatly increases your chance of being selected for an audit.

It's true that you don't need records to explain your personal spending, but you will need to produce records justifying any deductions/benefits claimed, and if your lifestyle appears to be large for your reported taxable income, you'll need to account for that too. Recently the IRS has started using public social media posts indicating lavish spending against people who are only paying taxes on meagre incomes.

Laundromats are actually classic tax fraud vehicles. There was an article on HN recently about how the government will pull their water/electric bills to see if the volume of business they claim their doing is in line with their actual resource usage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspicious_activity_report

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#93
post #5

Actually, zerocash is significantly different than other altcoins, in that it replaces digital signatures with zero knowledge proofs. It's technically very interesting, and seems like a believable next direction for Bitcoiners. The other direction would be some variant of ethereum. If you don't believe that a general purpose one-size-fits-all blockchain technology can be easily and safely created, but you would prefe…

> it replaces digital signatures with zero knowledge proofs

digital signatures are somehow non-interactive zero knowledge proofs. So what's the novelty here?

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Please, just tell me it's not premine. Why are you opposed to premining? (I had to look up the term, so I'm not baiting you! I don't see the problem, so I'd like to hear your thoughts).

Premining devalues future work done on a cryptocurrency because the underlying idea is to decentralize money, and the coins found at the start of a blockchain are easier to generate because the target difficulty for finding a block is significantly lower. The most famous case of premining I can think of is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinye (ltc clone), where people started mining it after dogecoin began. Dogecoin…

It's economically impossible to create a sustainably decentralized currency. Ultimately it will come to be controlled by whoever is most connected within the network.

Here's hoping we see much better means of facilitating polycentric currency systems that render individual currencies no more than "dumb pipes" for anyone who wants to use more than one.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#95
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash and dead drops provide both of those properties. There are many other ways to investigate crimes. Just because the internet is new doesn't mean that human rights don't apply for this new communication medium.

Government-impervious money transfer as a human right is nebulous at best. The internet has not changed the legal or ethical status of money laundering. At best you could say it has always been a human right, but it's certainly never existed in the US or Western Europe. Cash transactions carry substantial risk: both parties must be physically present in some place to make the deal. They can be tailed, the meeting pla…

You clearly don't understand how money laundering works or what it is. Anonymous payment systems do not make it any easier to launder money, tax offices can still figure out that you have unregistered income.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#96
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> drug-dealers People profiting off the illegality of drugs who are drawn to high-risk/high-reward work. > money-launderers People who want to keep ANY of their income sources private. Also see: Anyone who uses cash. > terrorists "There is neither an academic nor an accurate legal consensus regarding the definition of terrorism." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_terrorism This makes it a "weasel word" (or…

> > money-launderers > People who want to keep ANY of their income sources private. Also see: Anyone who uses cash. That's not what money laundering is, I really wish people would stop perpetuating this misinformation. Money laundering is when somebody takes illegal income and "cleans" it by creating fake clients that pay a front business. You obviously have to pay taxes, etc but at the end of the day you have a comp…

> "illegal" income

I found the problem. I don't think money has an intrinsic morality. It might be the result of (what some may deem) immoral action, but the money itself should not be illegal. There is nothing about "suddenly" having a lot of money which should be automatically illegal or prevented, and people should not have to explain every detail about how they obtained the money they did.

This kind of thinking leads to things like asset forfeiture abuse, where merely having a bunch of money on your person is apparently grounds for confiscation.

You may disagree, but I'm entitled to my opinion.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#98

It bothers me that there are "investors" for this and a CEO. What happens if it takes off? There's one or two founders and a couple investors that essentially control the flow of money in the system. Bitcoin was appealing precisely because it lacked a center control. Is there something I'm missing here?

If they're making a decentralized currency and things are sane, then the code is all open source, and their authority is only in developing the official client.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#99
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > money-launderers > People who want to keep ANY of their income sources private. Also see: Anyone who uses cash. That's not what money laundering is, I really wish people would stop perpetuating this misinformation. Money laundering is when somebody takes illegal income and "cleans" it by creating fake clients that pay a front business. You obviously have to pay taxes, etc but at the end of the day you have a comp…

> "illegal" income I found the problem. I don't think money has an intrinsic morality. It might be the result of (what some may deem) immoral action, but the money itself should not be illegal. There is nothing about "suddenly" having a lot of money which should be automatically illegal or prevented, and people should not have to explain every detail about how they obtained the money they did. This kind of thinking l…

"illegal income" means "income that was acquired illegally". And I was specifically referring to money laundering (which in of itself is a fairly emotionally-charged term if you think that money can be "dirty" in a moral sense). I don't see how you could read "illegal income" as "illegal money". And yes, I agree that money doesn't have morality.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#100
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Premining devalues future work done on a cryptocurrency because the underlying idea is to decentralize money, and the coins found at the start of a blockchain are easier to generate because the target difficulty for finding a block is significantly lower. The most famous case of premining I can think of is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinye (ltc clone), where people started mining it after dogecoin began. Dogecoin…

Zcash gets %10 of the mined coins for the first 4 years and %1 goes to a foundation. This is their business model. It seems reasonable to me... using the currency you're creating to fund the development of the currency. If Zcash ends up worthless, then they won't have captured any value. Since it's not a pre-mine it's not subject to the pump-and-dump dynamics of a pre-mine... it will take 4 years and the coins will h…

Thanks, MCRed. Yeah, I worked long and hard on this, and this (https://z.cash/blog/funding.html) is the best idea I could come up with. And yeah — if anyone else reading this has any better ideas, I would love to see you try it! If it helps, you could start with a copy of our source code (https://github.com/Electric-Coin-Company/zcash/).
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