So, I'm sure this will get buried, but in the hopeful event of responses: How does this prevent people from spending up to their means? People who make 20k, spend to their means. People who make 50k, spend to their means. People who make 100k, spend to their means. People who make 452k, spend to their means. This is a sincere, non-snark question: people spend to their means. It's similar to packing a bag, a person ha…
Request For Research: Basic Income
791–800 of 1001 posts
Re: Request For Research: Basic Income
#792Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was thinking about that, and about the story of Ferguson Missouri, where some huge portion of the (largely African American) population had arrest warrants over petty fines that had blossomed through late fees and default judgements into financial catastrophes levied by the (largely middle class white) municipal government, with the last few suggestions.
Instead of Universal Basic Income, how about Universal Basic Food Stamps? It feels like, rather than a basic income, we need two orthogonal currencies: one for necessities (food, rent, utilities) and one for niceities. Everyone would just have two numbers in their bank account, for each of the country's two official currencies. Basic income would be paid in one, while all income from trade in the economy would be in…
Re: Request For Research: Basic Income
#793Earlier quoted context omitted.
What I'm curious about is what's stopping a large portion of the population from simply quitting their jobs to live off basic income, thus decreasing the potential pool from which taxes to pay for basic income can be extracted? If it really worked out like you say it would, where people with middle or high incomes are no better off, I wonder what they would think when suddenly large swathes of the population are able…
>thus decreasing the potential pool from which taxes to pay for basic income can be extracted. Basic income proposals usually work something like this (numbers all made up, but close to those I've seen): Each person gets something around the poverty level (say $10k -$15k per year). The taxes that are raised to pay for it would increase gradually based on income up so that it would be a wash for someone making $55k a…
Re: Request For Research: Basic Income
#794Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or New Zealand's research into the feasibility of implementing UBI: http://igps.victoria.ac.nz/WelfareWorkingGroup/Downloads/Wor... Key takeaways: "An income of $300 per week is just over the average (mean) benefit income – therefore a plausible minimum income. However, paying a guaranteed income of $300 per week to every New Zealander aged 16 years and over, excluding superannuitants, comes at considerable fiscal co…
this is actually a really good read about it. Perhaps a lot of comments on HN is skewed towards the young tech worker who sees himself as victimized in a souless wage slavery, but we don't hear any opinions on UBI from the truly needy - the homeless, the chronic unemployed etc.
Re: Request For Research: Basic Income
#795Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was thinking about that, and about the story of Ferguson Missouri, where some huge portion of the (largely African American) population had arrest warrants over petty fines that had blossomed through late fees and default judgements into financial catastrophes levied by the (largely middle class white) municipal government, with the last few suggestions.
Instead of Universal Basic Income, how about Universal Basic Food Stamps? It feels like, rather than a basic income, we need two orthogonal currencies: one for necessities (food, rent, utilities) and one for niceities. Everyone would just have two numbers in their bank account, for each of the country's two official currencies. Basic income would be paid in one, while all income from trade in the economy would be in…
No we don't. "Vote with yer dollers" is a political talking point.
Re: Request For Research: Basic Income
#796Earlier quoted context omitted.
We already have an estate tax that maxes out at 40%. As long as we don't allow any more exemptions or windows, it shouldn't be a problem. We may quarrel over whether or not free lunch at work qualifies as income (I'd say it is not worth it to make a fuss) but use of corporate funds for personal expenses would count as income for the person if we are worried about these things. As long as the mega rich do not receive…
So the only tax break you're permitting is for inheritance? One doesn't need to believe that a startup entrepreneur who becomes a billionaire is somehow better than a billionaire who inherited his money to find line of argument that implies the only exemption in the tax system should be for inherited fortunes unfathomable.
Re: Request For Research: Basic Income
#7971. Financial risk is an element of prosperity. Lowering risk by improving public services and the safety net embolden more people to pursue a startup. I would spend more money if I didn't have to hoard every penny against the risk of a health crisis or period of unemployment.
2. Prosperity is the source of demand for products and services.
3. Broad based consumer demand can support infrastructure which, in turn, supports startups. An example that I can think of is the cell phone system, which really took off when "everybody" could afford a cell phone.
Re: Request For Research: Basic Income
#798Earlier quoted context omitted.
Instead of Universal Basic Income, how about Universal Basic Food Stamps? It feels like, rather than a basic income, we need two orthogonal currencies: one for necessities (food, rent, utilities) and one for niceities. Everyone would just have two numbers in their bank account, for each of the country's two official currencies. Basic income would be paid in one, while all income from trade in the economy would be in…
This sounds like unnecessary complexity as well as something that could cause problems. I don't think there is a need to restrict people to necessities when paying them a minimal income, they'll do that themselves. It is overly judgemental of what people living on a basic income are allowed to do, thus making living on only the basic income less viable. Your mother is dying and you need to fly to a different city to…
I don't actually want to restrict people from deciding what to buy; I want to restrict the government and corporations from wielding the tool of economic incentivization—a tool that works in most of the market—near the margins, where it just becomes a punishment to no end.
Left to their own devices, UBI will be treated as "free votes" in the economy: it will be entirely soaked up by corporations raising prices, because people will still have all the same "non-free votes" they had before, along with the free ones, and everything will adjust to the expectation that people spend both.
Along with this, the government will continue to levy harsh fines, liens will continue to be applied, etc. In UBI, these will take away the money that was supposed to be people's social support. (In fact, in the "pure" UBI most advocate for, these will take away more their social support than is possible today, since we'll have also disassembled welfare, disability assistance, medicare, pensions, etc.)
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Now, you're right in that people's needs vary. I don't agree that (pure) UBI is the best possible solution to this problem; it's just an easy one to conceptualize.
Do note that, of your hypothetical scenarios, I'd posit that the "fancy chair" is probably a medical device (and the entire healthcare system would be paid only in necessity-dollars; all demand there is inelastic.) And the book is probably a nicety. (Why not use a library? Unless it's a textbook—those are really, really inelastic, which is why they've gotten to be as expensive as they are.)
The flight situation is the truly confounding one. I would agree that this is something that people should be able to do. Yet most flights are for leisure or business, and it's nearly impossible to distinguish from any sort of government-verifiable context why someone is flying somewhere. There's no component of the economy-wide pricing of flights to pick out as being inelastic demand. It's a good example.
I'm not sure what to do about it, though. Even if you allocated people regular (nicety-dollar) UBI along with the necessity-dollars I've been talking about, that UBI would still suffer all the same problems plain UBI does. Flights (and anything else you could spend the UBI on) would just get more expensive by exactly how much everyone was getting.
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Now, maybe I'm coming at the problem all wrong. The problem is that suppliers of goods with inelastic demand right now get to charge $(elastic demand + inelastic demand), whereas everyone would be better off if they could only charge $(elastic demand), and then get the $(inelastic demand) paid from some other source.
You probably don't need a separate currency to do that. You don't need UBI, either. You just need, basically, the cheapest house in a market to cost $0, and for all other houses in that market to be shifted down in price by that same adjustment. That could be accomplished with simple government rebates, probably. Find products+services with inelastic demand, write people rebates for the amount of that inelastic demand, done.
Re: Request For Research: Basic Income
#799Not a single comment so far has mentioned Karl Marx. This "research" proposal is merely a technocratic rehash of Marxism: the inexorable forces of materialism and technological improvements entail endless progress driven by a Hegelian spirit. This will free humans from labor and eliminate the power of capital. Thus, somehow, unlimited production will enable people to live according to the motto "from each according t…
What are those atrocious consequences? For Russia? First satellite in space? First man in space? Or do you mean for the PRC, run by the standing committee of the Politburo of the Communist Party of China? Which is currently the second largest economy on earth (in some measures the first)?
What are those atrocious consequences? If you want to mention eggs broken along the way, remember to mention those of the US (extermination of the Indians, slavery, company towns etc.) or England (from the siege of Drogheda to Amritsar), Germany (Sieg Heil!?) and so forth...
Re: Request For Research: Basic Income
#800There is nothing much to research, because the concept contradicts to the most basic principles of ecology, economics and sociology. The first principle is that a population always outgrows its resources. As long as one create conditions to sustain a life it will start to reproduce exponentially. Rabits in Australia is a classic example. The second principle is the scarcity principle of economics. Everything which is…