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Request For Research: Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#641

Post by undersuit »

ianamartin wrote: post #499

I'm half-way tempted to apply for this despite the fact that a) I'm not moving from NYC to San Francisco, and b) I'm probably not qualified. In spite of that, I have some real questions and comments about the constraints on a project like this. 1. What's the budget for this? In order to get any generalizable data, you'd have to set up your sample plan to be geographically and demographically diverse. In an ideal worl…

I don't think adjusting Federal BI for location is the right tact. You'd have to much bureaucracy at the federal levels dealing with fraud, household moves, and city planning. I'd rather state, county, and cities enact their own BI supplementation.

I guess maybe if we had tighter integration between Federal and States there would be less problems with location variations, but then we bump into the States Right's issue.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#642

Post by tom_mellior »

mkempe wrote: post #614

Not a single comment so far has mentioned Karl Marx. This "research" proposal is merely a technocratic rehash of Marxism: the inexorable forces of materialism and technological improvements entail endless progress driven by a Hegelian spirit. This will free humans from labor and eliminate the power of capital. Thus, somehow, unlimited production will enable people to live according to the motto "from each according t…

> "basic income" divorced from free markets, see the Soviet Union, East Germany, Red China, Cuba, Cambodia, and more recently Venezuela.

1. There was no universal basic income in any of these places. 2. The proposal discussed here does not say anything about abolishing free markets. 3. Proof by analogy is fraud.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#643

Post by mkempe »

Mz wrote: post #619
mkempe wrote: post #614

Not a single comment so far has mentioned Karl Marx. This "research" proposal is merely a technocratic rehash of Marxism: the inexorable forces of materialism and technological improvements entail endless progress driven by a Hegelian spirit. This will free humans from labor and eliminate the power of capital. Thus, somehow, unlimited production will enable people to live according to the motto "from each according t…

Not a single comment so far has mentioned Karl Marx. I did not mention Karl Marx, but I did, in fact, mention communism. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10983248 /pedant

Thank you. I think it is important to understand that the technocratic egalitarianism advocated nowadays in Silicon Valley circles is a poor rehash of Marxist notions. While communism is a political, revolutionary movement, Marxism and Hegelianism were the philosophical underpinnings of that movement.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#644

Post by fooad »

@sama

I strongly believe that money is not the variable that has to change in the equation. I'd change the minimum amount of hours required to qualify for a full-time job (e.g. 40h / week).

Most of us aren't %100 productive from 8am to 5pm. Meaning, employers wouldn't really see much difference. If you reduce a 40hour week to a 20hour week, maintaining the same salary for each employee, people would have more free time. More time to do something awesome, etc. While maintaining the same level of income. That's what we should be aiming for and it wouldn't require a dramatic change in our society.

My 2 cents.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#645

Post by harryh »

fijal wrote: post #590
harryh wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the federal poverty level will be higher than $15,930 in 20 years. For reference, it grew by 59% in the last 20 years.

in real terms (inflation adjusted?) The change from 2014 to 2015 was 11670 -> 11770 so actually below inflation

Of course. But you were also talking in nominal (not inflation adjusted) returns when you said that 20 years of growth in Social Security income could fund a basic income.

You can inflation adjust neither or both sides of the equation but not just one which is what you were doing.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#646

Post by Mz »

mkempe wrote: post #643
Mz wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a single comment so far has mentioned Karl Marx. I did not mention Karl Marx, but I did, in fact, mention communism. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10983248 /pedant

Thank you. I think it is important to understand that the technocratic egalitarianism advocated nowadays in Silicon Valley circles is a poor rehash of Marxist notions. While communism is a political, revolutionary movement, Marxism and Hegelianism were the philosophical underpinnings of that movement.

Not only is it a poor rehash, it is incredibly insulting to the current Have Nots. It is very much a "I got mine, FUCK YOU." position. Perhaps, at best, a means to assuage their guilt for their imagined crime of being wealthy.

The system can change. It needs to change. I have no desire to be assigned the role of sheeple, where my only value to society is as a consumer. I cannot imagine a worse quality of life or a more effective means to disenfranchise me while telling yourself you are being "nice" to me.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#647

Post by pyoung »

branchless wrote: post #598
Eridrus wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of basic income, fixing housing is super important since it's one of the biggest drains on everyone's income and the fixed nature of it suggests that just giving everyone more money will cause a lot of that money to just end up in landlord's pockets. I think a lot of the change must be policy change though and cannot be purely free-market oriented since there is a public interest in seeing more housing sto…

So much this. We've see this over and over. If we get more productive the rentiers take it. We need to squash the rentier starting with land value tax. And stop taxing labour. Then you have the true choice because you can achieve financial autonomy through work and then tell the man where he can stick his job if he refuses to pass on enough of your value added. Cheaper land will see less people forced to work which w…

BI could have an impact because it could relieve the pressure on job centers (SF, NYC, LA, etc...) as people wouldn't be forced to move to look for work (and I imagine plenty of folks would leave those areas as well, because they are no longer as dependent on their job as they once were). At least in the US, there are a ton of midwest and rustbelt towns that have really cheap cost of living and plenty of land, but due to lack of jobs, are in really poor shape. BI could allow for people to relocate there, and the new influx of people (and income) could lead to revitalization.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#648

Post by AnimalMuppet »

mkempe wrote: post #643
Mz wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a single comment so far has mentioned Karl Marx. I did not mention Karl Marx, but I did, in fact, mention communism. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10983248 /pedant

Thank you. I think it is important to understand that the technocratic egalitarianism advocated nowadays in Silicon Valley circles is a poor rehash of Marxist notions. While communism is a political, revolutionary movement, Marxism and Hegelianism were the philosophical underpinnings of that movement.

> I think it is important to understand that the technocratic egalitarianism advocated nowadays in Silicon Valley circles is a poor rehash of Marxist notions.

I don't think that's what they're proposing at all. And if you want me to believe it, you're going to have to do more than claim it's true.

What, specifically, do you see in either the idea of basic income or in "technocratic egalitarianism" that is inherently Marxist (as opposed to being merely superficially similar in some respects)?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#649

Post by sliverstorm »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #541
egypturnash wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Access to money transfer as a basic human right" is a brilliant way to reframe the conversation around financial services. I'm gonna start talking about transaction fees from that perspective now. And yeah, good luck extracting the banks from the profit-making niches they've carved out in that process. They will fight that to their last breath.

It seems to be a very American thing to not have banking as a basic right (or at least assumed right). Here in New Zealand, there's pretty much no restriction on getting bank accounts. It's almost unheard of to not have a bank account. Transaction fees aren't really a thing either. Most people only have to pay to withdraw money from other banks ATMs. There's no fees for bank transfers (regardless of whether it's to t…

Everyone should be allowed to secure a bank account, but fees is a separate story. You have a right to freedom of movement (as in speech), but you don't have a right to free (as in beer) movement.

Transfers are generally free in the USA, too.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#650

Post by TrevorJ »

jdmichal wrote: post #52
TrevorJ wrote: post #17

I wonder what basic income would do to cost of living? If everyone ends up with x amount of guaranteed income, does the cost of living eventually rise by the same amount across the board and basically negate it? It seems like rent-seeking behavior would come in to play here.

I often have the same inclination of thought with regards to university education and government-guaranteed student loans. If I'm a university executive, and I know that the average student can afford $X, and I know the average student can also receive a guaranteed $Y in student loans... Why would I not set my price at $(X+Y) and take the full rent that I can?

A cursory search leads me to believe this may actually be happening:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-09/why-is-col...

http://www.businessadministrationinformation.com/news/study-...

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