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Request For Research: Basic Income

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Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reduced sense of self-worth is likely a result of the cultural stigma against joblessness. Hopefully, merely collecting a universal/basic income will not be similarly stigmatized.

> The reduced sense of self-worth is likely a result of the cultural stigma against joblessness. And is this a problem? Societally speaking, shame and stigma are great motivators. If we remove them as motivation for work, will society really be better off?

Isaac Newton was neither shamed nor stigmatized into developing calculus. Most of that work was done during "idle" time, while his university was closed for the Plague.

I daresay society's great achievements are not derived from shame and stigma. What real benefit does society derive from meaningless jobs [1]? We've tried shame and stigma. We should see whether society is better off when the thinkers and doers are free to use their time thinking and doing what they feel called to think and do.

[0] http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-ADD-04004/1

[1] http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not have startups have their employees work from home? Much simpler and easier to implement solution. I don't have the obsession of wanting to live in a city but I'm aware most people I know who don't have that obsession either still have to because their bosses does not let them work from home. If you only have to come in once a month or less you can live in a region where housing is affordable; I could buy a li…

Better remote work technologies would certainly help. For now, most tech companies have found that working face to face is really vital.

Perhaps in 1999 this was the case.

But technology is no longer a blocker. Often times companies will use this as an excuse instead of just coming out and saying "we prefer asses in seats because it looks good to our bosses".

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#493
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sold on density. I think improving rural logistics is more key. Make more land attractive rather than making more use of current land. That is logistics both for people, data, and goods.

It does seem attractive, all the empty land out there. But the point of cities is to be near lots of other people all the time. There's a tipping point of human flourishing from the intermingling. Great cities outlasted empires. Interaction density is the important thing, and it grows combinatorially with human density. There's no way you're going to get rural logistics to that level.

Its possible the internet has solved some of that benefit of closeness, but that socially we haven't yet caught up, but will gradually.

eg. Having good broadband plus good VR goggles and cameras might make remote working much more immediate and a viable replacement for all those commuter cars on the road.. the technology to make that effortless might be here in 2 years and our social norms might catch up in 10 years after that..but maybe its much longer, and/or a carbon tax or higher fuel or road use tax is needed as an incentive.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#494
post #5

There's a very relevant section in this book ( The Second Machine Age: Work, Progress, and Prosperity in a Time of Brilliant Technologies - http://amzn.to/1KFJ1Iu ) , that I just read last night: > "His view is strongly supported by the work of economist Andrew Oswald, who found that joblessness lasting six months or longer harms feelings of well-being and other measures of mental health about as much as the death of…

So, you want communism or forced labor camps?

I don't want Basic Income only to be told where and how to work. If I have to work for it, I want to go find work my damn self that I find palatable.

Which is (part of) why I don't want Basic Income at all.

(Edited for clarity)

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awesome. A couple points: Alternatives to patient-present doctor-mediated health care to cover the 80% case in which doctors are expensive overkill; some combination of telemedicine and nurse-practitioners. We have police departments and we have fire departments. We should have "nurse departments" that are clinics but much more structured as are fire and PD services for each given area. (I know there is a grey versio…

> insuring child care What do you mean by this?

My guess would be they meant "ensure" rather than "insure." It is difficult to have both parents working if they aren't certain they have adequate child care.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but all of those sound like things that are going to help people who were already going to be successful to be even more successful. College debt, for example, is a problem for those who were successful enough to get into college into the first place, and who, simply by getting into college, are already increasing their lifetime earnings by millions of dollars. Technological services for K-12 ed is pushing a s…

I'm not a big believer in minimizing college debt. I'm a believer in minimizing college . People who grow up in wealthy families naturally find themselves on a college track that seamlessly routes them to elite schools when they're 18 years old. People who grow up in poverty aren't on that track and might not even have much agency (due to their circumstances, requirements to work young, entanglements with the law) un…

College in Poland is free and there are options for very limited stipends which can sustain you (albeit on a poverty level). That did lift me from a poor, but educated, family into the world of computer software and a relatively successful career it seems. As it did for countless of my peers.

Please don't discount free education as "not changing much", in the US I would be probably working at Mc Donalds or dealing crack and in jail.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#499
I'm half-way tempted to apply for this despite the fact that a) I'm not moving from NYC to San Francisco, and b) I'm probably not qualified.

In spite of that, I have some real questions and comments about the constraints on a project like this.

1. What's the budget for this?

In order to get any generalizable data, you'd have to set up your sample plan to be geographically and demographically diverse. In an ideal world, you'd need to provide for 1,800 subjects to get genuinely usable data. Research is rarely ideal, and you can infer from smaller samples, but how many subjects are we talking about? 5? 10? 100? 500? 1,000? Also, what constitutes a sample? Individual or household? (see 2, paragraph 2 below)

2. What constitutes Basic Income?

I'd argue that Basic Income represents enough for all human needs to be fulfilled to some arbitrarily minimal extent. Unlike some other comments, I include the need for entertainment and sex among basic human needs. As well as catastrophic health care. Does that mean everyone gets a free PS 4? No. And I also don't mean paying for prostitutes. But some budget for entertainment of some kind makes sense to me, as does a budget for dating.

Anything short of that fails, in my opinion, to be a basic income. It's more like welfare for everyone, which is conceptually different, in my opinion. I also think Basic Income should be adjusted for location and household size. Although it might not be the right metric, the most convenient one we have is centuries of data about total household income vs. household size. That's how the Census Bureau defines the poverty threshold, for example.

There are a lot of different ways to think about this, and my opinions above are just that: opinions. The point I'm trying to make is that if this experiment is going to happen, what's the best possible scenario for measuring something useful?

3. How do we research what is happening without affecting the outcome?

I actually have an answer to this one. I think it's inevitable that any time a government agency is processing payments, there are at least some hoops to jump through. Welfare has its process, as does unemployment. It's reasonable to think we can design a brief questionnaire that tracks certain key variables like productivity, happiness, artistic endeavors, anxiety (bonus points for using a wearable device to track stress levels?? Maybe?) . . . whatever. I'm not sure what those should be.

But it could be structured in a way that is realistic enough that you wouldn't do any obvious damage to the study by observation. Once your location and status have been established, the benefits do not change depending on your answers. But you have to check in and request a payment on the 25th and 10 of every month (to guarantee payments on the 1st and 15th).

4. It's important to note that there will be some people who adjust to whatever income they are making and do nothing beyond that. I don't know what percentage that is, but the funders have to understand that at least some people will do nothing but sit around and drink or play video games, and that can't be a reason to cut them off, otherwise, it really biases things in a bad way.

5. If this is able to be truly representative, then you would have to expect at least some percent of the participants in the experiment to get into legal trouble.

What do we do with them?

If you set a condition that people stay out of legal trouble to get the benefits (a genuinely real scenario if we are trying to model how this might be implemented in the future), then you are tampering with your sample.

If you don't attach such a condition, you're going to draw a huge amount of criticism for paying people to be in jail, potentially funding criminal operations of various kinds, and there will be a small portion of people who choose to go to jail who have been there before and are comfortable with it and live extremely cheaply while racking up the savings. That's a tough one.

6. Going back to budget: is there enough to do control vs. group testing?

By that, I mean we have a control group that answers the same survey every two weeks, but only gets a small incentive to do so. Nothing even close to a basic income. Enough to get them to hit a website and answer a 5-minute questionnaire about their life for the last two weeks, identical to the one the BI people are required to answer for their payments.

And how many strategies can we afford to test? If we have rep sample control, then we can rep sample a variety of strategies: pro-rated based on location and household size, flat BI same for everyone, or other nuanced approaches.

I guess I've really seriously gone and buried the lede here, but Sam, what is the scope of this project? My experience in research is that there's not really an analogue to the MVP in the startup world.

Research needs to be rigorous and correct from the outset. You can't hack something together that mostly works and then see if it gets traction and find bigger funders if it does. I'm not suggesting that's your line of thinking, but this is a big project.

Getting meaningful, generalizable data about this is going to cost a lot.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions that don't involve students shouldering $100k-$200k in debt based on decisions they have to make when they're 18 years old. Why not just free university education for people who have the prerequisite academic qualifications?

This word "Free" amuses me. I am curious why you think that something can be offered for free with no payment associated with it? Will the Professors work for free? Who will pay the electricity bill to heat or cool the buildings? What about the course material? Free? There is no such thing. Someone will always end up paying for it.

Ultimately this is just mixing up definitions of "value" in disguise. It's the reverse of assuming price is tied to some kind of intrinsic "value" of the good. Here, you're assuming nothing can be free (in economical sense) because physics. But it's not true. If you give stuff away no strings attached, it's free, period.
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