Request For Research: Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#511

Post by magicmu » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:56 PM UTC

I think disrupting the core components of our society that decrease and inhibit growth of wealth for specific groups of people would be the most effective way to increase prosperity for everyone. These components include, but are definitely not limited to:

- credit (specifically housing and pay-day loans) - the necessity (real or imagined) of a college degree - quality and subject matter of pre-university education - utilities (specifically electricity and internet) - housing and rent

To be clear, I'm not advocating the direct removal or destructuring of any of these things. I do, however, see these as disruptable (but largely ignored) aspects of our society and economic system that have direct, adverse effects on many groups of people.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#512

Post by chuckschnitzel » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:56 PM UTC

I think the premise of this is wrong.

1. It paints an idealistic picture of the state:

> It’s true that we have systems in place to give people > resources, but the bureaucracy and qualification > requirements make it a very imperfect approximation of what > most people mean when talking about a basic income.

I'd suggest to ask why there is this bureaucracy in the first place. I'd suggest it does its job perfectly well.

2. It paints an idealistic picture of the capitalist economy:

> I think it’s good to start studying this early. I’m fairly > confident that at some point in the future, as technology > continues to eliminate traditional jobs and massive new > wealth gets created, we’re going to see some version of > this at a national scale.

Machines do not destroy jobs. The social purpose for which they are used - profit - makes and destroys job. Put differently, I'd suggest to ask why this economy produces mass poverty when it gets easier to produce stuff.

I recommend https://gegen-kapital-und-nation.org/en/what-wrong-free-mone...

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#513

Post by tptacek » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:56 PM UTC

fijal wrote: post #498

tptacek wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a big believer in minimizing college debt. I'm a believer in minimizing college . People who grow up in wealthy families naturally find themselves on a college track that seamlessly routes them to elite schools when they're 18 years old. People who grow up in poverty aren't on that track and might not even have much agency (due to their circumstances, requirements to work young, entanglements with the law) un…

College in Poland is free and there are options for very limited stipends which can sustain you (albeit on a poverty level). That did lift me from a poor, but educated, family into the world of computer software and a relatively successful career it seems. As it did for countless of my peers. Please don't discount free education as "not changing much", in the US I would be probably working at Mc Donalds or dealing cr…

I'm not opposed to free education. I'm certain free education is better than $150k education. But gating stable employment on 4-year degrees is problematic for reasons other than tuition costs, and, equally important to this thread, startups probably can't make college free, but they might be able to replace college for a pretty big set of white collar jobs.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#514

Post by logfromblammo » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:57 PM UTC

taurath wrote: post #411

logfromblammo wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it will. To avoid it, a significant portion of Basic Income would have to be paid out as goods and services vouchers with redemption limits. Rather than getting $50 a day as cash, you might get 4 nutritionally balanced but generally unpalatable meal rations, two payment vouchers for one day in one state-owned 250 sq.ft. housing capsule, 30 kWh of metered electricity, 100 gallons of potable water, 10 Gb of net…

If the basic tenants and studies that have called basic income into the forefront are to be believed (and the actual spectre of central state control that people are afraid of in some circumstances is real, and it is), the best way to benefit people in need is to give them cash. Most of the time, people spend it on things they need. If they don't, they are either suffering from a mental or addiction issue and need tr…

But on a grand scale, where everybody knows that everyone is getting the same amount of free money, the market adjusts accordingly, within minutes.

You can give 20 people $100 each to spend as they see fit, and it wouldn't affect the price of a Happy Meal. But if you give 100000 people $100 each, you can bet that the price of that food is going up a bit, just because more people can more easily afford a higher price.

Subsidy affects market equilibria differently than using the same amount of resources to lower costs or increase supplier firms, or do industry-advocacy advertising.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#515

Post by nfc » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:57 PM UTC

I object to the notion of unconditional basic income. I think the possibility of large portions of the population underachieving in their return to society while we are still not rich enough as society to afford it is very real. I'd propose a twist to this unconditionality. I'd much rather see a different brand of basic income in return for work that everyone can do in a relatively small number of hours per month (20h?-40h?).

In order to implement such a system we need a reliable way for society to judge the voluntary work of its members that would justify the basic income. And a set of works with social value offered to those whose chosen work is not deemed worthy of basic income.

I'll just try to make this more clear with a possible implementation of such a system.

You are allowed to receive your basic income and do whatever you want as long as a number of randomly selected people consider your work worthy of basic income.

A way to organise this would be to present what you have done in some kind of predefined format at the end of each year. These people decide if what you have done is worthy of you getting your basic income another year. Otherwise the next year you have to work in one of the state accepted ways to get your basic income (by teaching, playing with kids, cleaning the roads or whatever thing we as a society agree it's always worthy). To maximise the accountability I'd choose these random group of people in the community of the person who receives the basic income. They will have better ways to know wether what is presented is actually being done and worthy. These 'judges' would need to be anonymous to minimise the potential for social engineering to game the system.

This is just an example, I think we can devise different versions of the control structures following the same spirit for works that do not adjust well to this kind of evaluation.

Sorry for my grammar and english. Perhaps someone can restate this in a more readable way. English is not my first language and I'm not a great writer, but I hope at least the essence of the ideas behind this proposal pass through and can contribute to the general discussion.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#516

Post by tptacek » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:58 PM UTC

termain wrote: post #501

arohner wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I'll also add the 4-year education is incredibly inefficient, in terms of skills added over time. Even in highly technical STEM degrees, you probably don't need 4 years "full time" to gain all of the skills an employer expects a fresh-out-of-school STEM graduate to have. The same is even more true of less technical degrees.

"Yes. I'll also add the 4-year education is incredibly inefficient, in terms of skills added over time" I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a university degree is entirely about workforce skills.

It isn't. That's the problem.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#517

Post by tanker » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:59 PM UTC

> What can startups do to increase prosperity for everyone?

Make starting a business as easy as possible: 1) Have all the legal stuff taken care of through a web form that fills out all the paperwork in a standard way. When a business becomes sophisticated enough, they get a lawyer to customize their solution if necessary.

2) Provide simple business banking at the same time.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#518

Post by phrogdriver » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 10:00 PM UTC

fijal wrote: post #498

tptacek wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a big believer in minimizing college debt. I'm a believer in minimizing college . People who grow up in wealthy families naturally find themselves on a college track that seamlessly routes them to elite schools when they're 18 years old. People who grow up in poverty aren't on that track and might not even have much agency (due to their circumstances, requirements to work young, entanglements with the law) un…

College in Poland is free and there are options for very limited stipends which can sustain you (albeit on a poverty level). That did lift me from a poor, but educated, family into the world of computer software and a relatively successful career it seems. As it did for countless of my peers. Please don't discount free education as "not changing much", in the US I would be probably working at Mc Donalds or dealing cr…

Not to nitpick, but in my experience growing up in the Midwest of the US most "poor, but educated, families" like mine pushed children into state schools where they pay in-state tuition and graduate with $10-40k in debt. Most careers are open to them and you would almost definitely not be working at McDs or in jail.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#519

Post by marknutter » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 10:01 PM UTC

clavalle wrote: post #413

Spooky23 wrote: post #120

The problem with basic income is that people need purpose, not charity. Look at the success of programs in Africa that give people the ability to make a living, not a bag of rice. One particularly moving story was about a group that got foot-powered water pumps into the hands of subsistence farmers, who subsequently were able to send their kids to school. At one point, the core purpose of monetary policy and central…

> The problem with basic income is that people need purpose, not charity. > I think we need to figure out how to empower people. I don't think anything you've said is incompatible with something like basic income. What could be more empowering than knowing your basic needs will be taken care of? From that position of strength you can negotiate with others based on mutual benefit rather than avoiding the consequences…

The problem is how "basic needs" are defined.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#520

Post by fijal » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 10:01 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #513

fijal wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College in Poland is free and there are options for very limited stipends which can sustain you (albeit on a poverty level). That did lift me from a poor, but educated, family into the world of computer software and a relatively successful career it seems. As it did for countless of my peers. Please don't discount free education as "not changing much", in the US I would be probably working at Mc Donalds or dealing cr…

I'm not opposed to free education. I'm certain free education is better than $150k education. But gating stable employment on 4-year degrees is problematic for reasons other than tuition costs, and, equally important to this thread, startups probably can't make college free, but they might be able to replace college for a pretty big set of white collar jobs.

sorry, misunderstood you, apologies.