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Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

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Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#61

Post by johnward »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #41
steve-howard wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My "discontinuation syndrome" was coming off desvenlafaxine. My access to it was suddenly taken away so I had no choice but to sit through the brain zaps for probably a week or two. You can't be sure how long it's going to last and that shit is as unpleasant as it gets.

This is why you need to taper off the drugs over 4 weeks. If it takes 4 weeks to start working, it makes sense it should take your brain the same amount of time to work properly without them.

Even with tapering I get severe sides from ssri/ssri drugs.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#62

Post by johnward »

tachyonbeam wrote: post #43
heimatau wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I'm feeling blue today, my serotonin must be low," etc. This drives me crazy. It's pure pseudoscience, Yeah. I think it's a pseudoscience too. Even though 5HTP and St. John's Wort produce a 'happy feeling' to me and many others. It doesn't last. Even with modern day SSRIs and other depression meds, pill holidays are recommended. Pill holidays shows me that they are an imperfect solution. I would tell a person in a…

The reason it doesn't last is that you're building a tolerance. Your brain tries to adapt so that it can bring you back to "baseline". If such mechanisms weren't in place, then a change in diet could have a massive impact on our moods and mental stability.

I don't know if you mean daily dietary changes but I feel very different mentally when on a strict keto diet.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#63

Post by ConceptJunkie »

carleverett wrote: post #45
Raphmedia wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you claim this? From what I have read 5-Hydroxytryptophan seem like a widely accepted supplement for issues with Serotonin and/or depression and mood. The only articles that I have found that say it might not be of use are studies that simply say that 5-HTP is better than placebo but that we can't say more yet because of lack of researches. Edit: and possible heart valves issues if you do not take it correc…

Admittedly my doubts are solely based on the fact that I see the 5-HTP next to the fish oil pills and other non-FDA approved supplements at the pharmacy. It fits into the profiled of what I consider "alternative medicine," and generally I agree with the idea that if alternative medicine actually worked, it would be called medicine. You've done more research than me though. I'll defer to your judgment here.

I'm not an alternative medicine fanatic, but neither am I someone who thinks that Big Pharma is nothing but an evil conspiracy, but I suspect at the end of the day, these things don't get a lot of attention because there's no "miracle drug" that can be patented and sold for billions.

They fall outside the jurisdiction of the FDA (whether they should or not is debatable), but I wouldn't write any of these items off just because they are marketed as supplements.

I think the best we can say is that we don't know enough about them and their effects. Look at how often the "eat X, it's good for you"/"don't eat X, it's bad for you"/"X has no significant effect" articles we see... often where X is the same thing in different categories.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#64

Post by steve-howard »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #41
steve-howard wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My "discontinuation syndrome" was coming off desvenlafaxine. My access to it was suddenly taken away so I had no choice but to sit through the brain zaps for probably a week or two. You can't be sure how long it's going to last and that shit is as unpleasant as it gets.

This is why you need to taper off the drugs over 4 weeks. If it takes 4 weeks to start working, it makes sense it should take your brain the same amount of time to work properly without them.

If I had had the choice I would have tapered, but I had an adverse reaction to it and it wasn't handled very well.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#65

Post by steve-howard »

Nihilartikel wrote: post #50

There's actually an old, effective-in-studies, and fairly obscure anti-depressant called tianeptine that works by enhancing serotonin reuptake, which lowers the levels. Effectively an Anti SSRI. I hear about it from the nootropics camp from time to time.

That's very interesting, I've never heard of that. Apparently it's a tricyclic, but doesn't have the same side effects that have caused most tricyclics to fall out of use. Never approved in the US, either, though current research suggests it works in different ways than the most common drugs.

I'm hopeful that as drugs unrelated to seratonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine start to show promise with depression, that we'll have a better picture of what's going on in the brain when people get depressed. IMO one of the missing pieces in severe depression treatment is what to do in the weeks it takes medications to take effect, if they even do; the current strategy seems to be "wait it out and if they're at risk of hurting themselves put them in a rubber room."

Wiki link for lazy folks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianeptine

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#66

Post by tcj_phx »

lostinny wrote: post #48
joesmo wrote: post #23

This is the first honest article I've read on the subject of serotonin and neurotransmitters in years. It basically concludes what very few people seem to be aware of: that we do not know what causes depression or anxiety nor do we know how SSRIs, SSNRIs, or other similar chemicals work. There are, at best, hypothesis, generally untestable. The idea of chemical "imbalances" in the brain is, as it has been since its i…

Indeed! We still don't understand the causes of anxiety and depression, and yet far too many doctors simply went along with the "chemical imbalance" narrative. SSRIs and related medications can be wonderful tools, but that proves nothing re: causality and the best long term treatment. Sadly, this battle was lost a long time ago[1], but it's heartening that people are starting to revisit some of these debates. [1] Her…

Your link seems to make a case for SSRIs causing learned helplessness. It's been 17 years since this article was written, and the profession is still working on fixing itself. "Hmm."

Thanks for the link!

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#67

Post by DanBC »

coldtea wrote: post #42
DanBC wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. That's not saying much. A jab in the eye with a sharp stick is less toxic than alcohol, but it's not a good idea.

Well, if you can consume a decent dose of MDMA every day for all your life, like you can with alcohol (e.g. a glass or two of wine with your meal), without adverse effects, as tons of millions of people do with alcohol (e.g. in Spain, Greece, France, etc), then I don't see what's the concern.

You might be over-estimating how much alcohol the average French person drinks, or under-estimating the harm that results tot he regular drinkers.

"a glass or two of wine with your meal" "every day" is unequivocally harmful. It's a dangerous, pernicious myth (mostly promoted by alcohol companies) that daily alcohol is some how healthy.

A small number of French people drink very heavily. A bit less than 20% of the French population drinks wine daily. This contributes to the 49,000 or so who die of alcohol related disease each year.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#68

Post by rudolf0 »

Nihilartikel wrote: post #50

There's actually an old, effective-in-studies, and fairly obscure anti-depressant called tianeptine that works by enhancing serotonin reuptake, which lowers the levels. Effectively an Anti SSRI. I hear about it from the nootropics camp from time to time.

Unfortunately, tianeptine is not quite the wonder drug people hoped it would be.

It does increase serotonin reuptake (thus resulting in lower serotonin concentrations), but this is believed to be unrelated to its anti-depressant and relaxant effects. You can see a debunking here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuptake_enhancer

Tianeptine was found to simply be an opioid receptor agonist. In other words, it's just a mild opioid, sort of like codeine. Obviously, opioids and opiates can improve mood.

But it's a weak agonist, and the opioid receptors it targets are less implicated in the addiction and powerful euphoria associated with morphine or heroin. So, taken in low doses (the standard dose is very low), dependence and tolerance can remain low, and it can effectively improve mood over a long period of time. But increasing the dose will result in typical opioid euphoria, tolerance, and withdrawal effects.

Perhaps more importantly, it doesn't treat the root cause of depression in many people; it merely masks it. Sure, SSRIs often don't treat the root cause either, though for people with specific serotonin issues, they can. But an opioid or opiate is always just going to be a "layer" over your depression.

It also tends not to help people who struggle with avolition and lack of motivation or energy; it may even do the opposite, as opioids are wont to do.

But it will help with your mood. And it not treating the root cause is not necessarily a bad thing if it improves your enjoyment of life and your ability to function.

For many people, an SSRI will be more effective than tianeptine. For those who do not have any serotonin imbalance, tianeptine could be better.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#69

Post by coldtea »

DanBC wrote: post #67
coldtea wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you can consume a decent dose of MDMA every day for all your life, like you can with alcohol (e.g. a glass or two of wine with your meal), without adverse effects, as tons of millions of people do with alcohol (e.g. in Spain, Greece, France, etc), then I don't see what's the concern.

You might be over-estimating how much alcohol the average French person drinks, or under-estimating the harm that results tot he regular drinkers. "a glass or two of wine with your meal" "every day" is unequivocally harmful. It's a dangerous, pernicious myth (mostly promoted by alcohol companies) that daily alcohol is some how healthy. A small number of French people drink very heavily. A bit less than 20% of the Fre…

>You might be over-estimating how much alcohol the average French person drinks, or under-estimating the harm that results tot he regular drinkers.

Well, I know how much people back in my village drink, and I probably underestimate it. As for effects, they merely live to 80-90 and still manage to work on the fields and such.

>"a glass or two of wine with your meal" "every day" is unequivocally harmful. It's a dangerous, pernicious myth (mostly promoted by alcohol companies) that daily alcohol is some how healthy.

Actually daily alcohol has been the norm for very long living populations, including this famed one, which I've met and seen personally:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1037448...

http://processedfreeamerica.org/resources/health-news/817-th...

Where: "the Icarian diet includes a little wine at every meal, even breakfast? They usually drink between two and four glasses of wine per day."

And counter to your claims, the science seems to support it, e.g:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/11066516/Glass-of-win...

http://www.endocrineweb.com/news/diabetes/17936-red-wine-din...

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-heart-wine-idUSKCN0...

>A small number of French people drink very heavily. A bit less than 20% of the French population drinks wine daily. This contributes to the 49,000 or so who die of alcohol related disease each year.

While that's true, that has to do more with the economy and modern trends (sodas etc). Historically it has been a much different picture:

"France's average wine consumption fall from 160 litres per adult, per year in 1965 to 57 litres in 2010, roughly the equivalent of a drop from three glasses to one glass per person, per day"

A lot of the fear about alcohol in the US comes from the fact that people are not properly taught to handle it (as something you drink with company, accompanying a meal, enjoying slowly etc), and use it in moderation from a young age (heck, the drinking age is 21 years olds), and instead use it in excess as some kind of recreation/pain killer/etc combo. Very few people at 19-21 in Europe (and especially regions like Spain, France, Italy, etc) would ever do the kind of BS stunts an American college student would do with beer and alcohol. (Though protestant and Northern countries tend to fare worse in this cultural aspect).

To quote:

"Comparing patterns of alcohol consumption between the United States and the majority of European countries, for example, reveals an interesting trend. In the U.S., the nation with one of the highest binge drinking rates worldwide, people tend to abuse alcohol. In Europe, by contrast, more people enjoy drinking alcohol without binge drinking because leisurely drinking is an important part of social interaction."

http://mic.com/articles/57211/can-you-guess-where-in-the-wor...

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#70

Post by DanBC »

coldtea wrote: post #69
DanBC wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be over-estimating how much alcohol the average French person drinks, or under-estimating the harm that results tot he regular drinkers. "a glass or two of wine with your meal" "every day" is unequivocally harmful. It's a dangerous, pernicious myth (mostly promoted by alcohol companies) that daily alcohol is some how healthy. A small number of French people drink very heavily. A bit less than 20% of the Fre…

> You might be over-estimating how much alcohol the average French person drinks, or under-estimating the harm that results tot he regular drinkers. Well, I know how much people back in my village drink, and I probably underestimate it. As for effects, they merely live to 80-90 and still manage to work on the fields and such. > "a glass or two of wine with your meal" "every day" is unequivocally harmful. It's a dange…

> the science seems to support it, e.g:

You claim the science supports it, but you link to the Telegraph and Reuters?

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