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Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

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Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#41

Post by bluedevil2k »

steve-howard wrote: post #39
DigitalJack wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to be careful with the pill holiday thing. When I was taking venlafaxine, the withdrawl happened very fast and was miserable... if I missed two days I was in trouble.

My "discontinuation syndrome" was coming off desvenlafaxine. My access to it was suddenly taken away so I had no choice but to sit through the brain zaps for probably a week or two. You can't be sure how long it's going to last and that shit is as unpleasant as it gets.

This is why you need to taper off the drugs over 4 weeks. If it takes 4 weeks to start working, it makes sense it should take your brain the same amount of time to work properly without them.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#42

Post by coldtea »

DanBC wrote: post #31
CoryG89 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MDMA does not form a physical dependence. In fact, if you keep taking it, it will stop working altogether eventually, regardless of an increased dose. There have been many bullshit studies with predetermined agendas and bad methodologies which have claimed that MDMA is neurotoxic. Whenever more responsible, un-biased studies are done, they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn…

> they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. That's not saying much. A jab in the eye with a sharp stick is less toxic than alcohol, but it's not a good idea.

Well, if you can consume a decent dose of MDMA every day for all your life, like you can with alcohol (e.g. a glass or two of wine with your meal), without adverse effects, as tons of millions of people do with alcohol (e.g. in Spain, Greece, France, etc), then I don't see what's the concern.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#43

Post by tachyonbeam »

heimatau wrote: post #34
NickM wrote: post #33

I've noticed a strong pop-psych trend these days of referring to one's own feelings or experiences in terms of neurotransmitters. e.g. "I'm hooked on the dopamine rush of such-and-such activity," "I'm feeling blue today, my serotonin must be low," etc. This drives me crazy. It's pure pseudoscience, and I hear it from people who should know better. Scientifically, we have very little idea what chemicals are actually b…

> "I'm feeling blue today, my serotonin must be low," etc. This drives me crazy. It's pure pseudoscience, Yeah. I think it's a pseudoscience too. Even though 5HTP and St. John's Wort produce a 'happy feeling' to me and many others. It doesn't last. Even with modern day SSRIs and other depression meds, pill holidays are recommended. Pill holidays shows me that they are an imperfect solution. I would tell a person in a…

The reason it doesn't last is that you're building a tolerance. Your brain tries to adapt so that it can bring you back to "baseline". If such mechanisms weren't in place, then a change in diet could have a massive impact on our moods and mental stability.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#44

Post by corin_ »

CoryG89 wrote: post #29
johnw11 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, isn't MDMA highly toxic if used frequently? Drug forums seem to recommend the use of MDMA no more often than once every two weeks.

MDMA does not form a physical dependence. In fact, if you keep taking it, it will stop working altogether eventually, regardless of an increased dose. There have been many bullshit studies with predetermined agendas and bad methodologies which have claimed that MDMA is neurotoxic. Whenever more responsible, un-biased studies are done, they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn…

Actually nowhere near enough research has been done to understand what, if any, long-term damage frequent MDMA use can cause.

In the very short-term it is quite neurotoxic, and consuming too much can cause immediate problems. It looks like short-term problems can be minimised by taking a few weeks in between uses, and according to at least one study it looks like all damage can be undone by just a few months of abstience.

However there's really not enough data about lasting affects, if there are any, or about how frequency of use could impact your brain's outcome, or.... etc.

Anecdotally I've heard many stories of people using MDMA too often and "losing the magic", that it just stops giving them the effects they used to enjoy.

One other thing to note, you wrote "if you keep taking it, it will stop working altogether eventually, regardless of an increased dose" I'm no expert, and could well be corrected on this, but I suspect that is much more the case with the positive effects than with the downsides. For example MDMA is a drug known to have a "sweet spot" for most people, unlike many drugs (from booze to weed to cocaine) where different people build up different tolerances/preferences and therefore have a large range of doses, MDMA is generally thought to have quite a small range of good doses, after which increases will cause more/worse side affects without adding anything positive to the experience.

Edit: https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/is-mdma-neurotoxic/ is good for brief further reading (good sources cited at the end to follow), as well as https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity1.sh...

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#45

Post by carleverett »

Raphmedia wrote: post #37
carleverett wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relevant part of this comment: "I am no brain scientist." You probably could have had the same effect from a sugar pill.

Why would you claim this? From what I have read 5-Hydroxytryptophan seem like a widely accepted supplement for issues with Serotonin and/or depression and mood. The only articles that I have found that say it might not be of use are studies that simply say that 5-HTP is better than placebo but that we can't say more yet because of lack of researches. Edit: and possible heart valves issues if you do not take it correc…

Admittedly my doubts are solely based on the fact that I see the 5-HTP next to the fish oil pills and other non-FDA approved supplements at the pharmacy. It fits into the profiled of what I consider "alternative medicine," and generally I agree with the idea that if alternative medicine actually worked, it would be called medicine.

You've done more research than me though. I'll defer to your judgment here.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#46

Post by rudolf0 »

tachyonbeam wrote: post #43
heimatau wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I'm feeling blue today, my serotonin must be low," etc. This drives me crazy. It's pure pseudoscience, Yeah. I think it's a pseudoscience too. Even though 5HTP and St. John's Wort produce a 'happy feeling' to me and many others. It doesn't last. Even with modern day SSRIs and other depression meds, pill holidays are recommended. Pill holidays shows me that they are an imperfect solution. I would tell a person in a…

The reason it doesn't last is that you're building a tolerance. Your brain tries to adapt so that it can bring you back to "baseline". If such mechanisms weren't in place, then a change in diet could have a massive impact on our moods and mental stability.

I agree; this article is a little misleading. Any substance that rapidly releases serotonin will definitely make you feel happy, if you're not already tolerant.

It's obviously more complex than just being "the happy neurotransmitter", but it is tied to general mood.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#47

Post by rudolf0 »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #21

SSRI's in my opinion are not the future of antidepressants. They work by indiscriminately increasing serotonin levels in the synapse, thereby activating every single serotonin receptor (5-HT). While you get the anti-depressant effect by increasing the activation at the 5-HT1 receptor, you also get the negative side effects of SSRI's since it activates 5-HT2c receptor (weight gain), 5-HT3 receptor (nausea), and sleep…

Also keep in mind that depression isn't always caused by serotonin issues or remediated by increasing serotonin (which is somewhat redundant with this article, though I think the article paints serotonin too negatively).

For example, if someone has bipolar disorder (or similar issues), they may have fairly standard serotonin concentration and receptor activation, but an SSRI may not help much with their depression.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#48

Post by lostinny »

joesmo wrote: post #23

This is the first honest article I've read on the subject of serotonin and neurotransmitters in years. It basically concludes what very few people seem to be aware of: that we do not know what causes depression or anxiety nor do we know how SSRIs, SSNRIs, or other similar chemicals work. There are, at best, hypothesis, generally untestable. The idea of chemical "imbalances" in the brain is, as it has been since its i…

Indeed! We still don't understand the causes of anxiety and depression, and yet far too many doctors simply went along with the "chemical imbalance" narrative.

SSRIs and related medications can be wonderful tools, but that proves nothing re: causality and the best long term treatment. Sadly, this battle was lost a long time ago[1], but it's heartening that people are starting to revisit some of these debates.

[1] Here's an article from 1999 arguing essentially the same thing re: how little we understand about mental illness, and how prescribing doctors should be cautious about oversimplifying something so complex: http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/psychotherapy/psychotherapy-...

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#49

Post by rudolf0 »

CoryG89 wrote: post #29
johnw11 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, isn't MDMA highly toxic if used frequently? Drug forums seem to recommend the use of MDMA no more often than once every two weeks.

MDMA does not form a physical dependence. In fact, if you keep taking it, it will stop working altogether eventually, regardless of an increased dose. There have been many bullshit studies with predetermined agendas and bad methodologies which have claimed that MDMA is neurotoxic. Whenever more responsible, un-biased studies are done, they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn…

It may not be a drug with risk of addiction, but MDMA is absolutely neurotoxic, even from a single dose. The neurotoxicity from a single standard dose is pretty negligible, and can be remediated with supplements, but frequent use (like once per week) will absolutely cause brain damage no matter what you do.

Here is a good overview of its different neurotoxicity factors from a well-regarded neuroscience researcher:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/13lp0b/mdma_neur...

https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/15m9sf/mdma_supp...

1. MDMA metabolizes into other chemicals which are prone to creating many reactive oxygen species, causing oxidative stress in different parts of the brain. This can be mitigated, partially, with anti-oxidant supplements.

2. MDMA directly harms and destroys receptors via serotonin, dopamine, and glutamate system via excitotoxicity. Infrequent use minimizes this. NMDA antagonists could also possibly help reduce some of the effects.

3. MDMA harms all parts of the brain by overheating it. Stay hydrated and prevent yourself from doing much physical activity in a hot area.

So, MDMA can be taken safely, but it is naturally neurotoxic, and must be treated with much respect and caution.

Other good advice for what supplements to take can be found at http://rollsafe.org

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