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Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

theneurosphere.com

31–40 of 75 posts

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#31
post #29
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, isn't MDMA highly toxic if used frequently? Drug forums seem to recommend the use of MDMA no more often than once every two weeks.

MDMA does not form a physical dependence. In fact, if you keep taking it, it will stop working altogether eventually, regardless of an increased dose. There have been many bullshit studies with predetermined agendas and bad methodologies which have claimed that MDMA is neurotoxic. Whenever more responsible, un-biased studies are done, they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn…

> they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol.

That's not saying much. A jab in the eye with a sharp stick is less toxic than alcohol, but it's not a good idea.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#32

After feeling very down, so much that I didn't felt like myself, I started to experiment with herbal supplements. Valerian to sleep, but my problem wasn't lack of sleep. St John's Wort for mood, but I didn't feel moody. I tried 5-htp, which from my understanding is a precursor to the biosynthesis of Serotonin. The effect was immediate. I felt light headed, buzzed even. I felt as if I had suddenly woken up in a bright…

Relevant part of this comment: "I am no brain scientist."

You probably could have had the same effect from a sugar pill.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#33
I've noticed a strong pop-psych trend these days of referring to one's own feelings or experiences in terms of neurotransmitters. e.g. "I'm hooked on the dopamine rush of such-and-such activity," "I'm feeling blue today, my serotonin must be low," etc.

This drives me crazy. It's pure pseudoscience, and I hear it from people who should know better. Scientifically, we have very little idea what chemicals are actually behind different subjective feelings/moods/whatever. Everyone would love to believe that the brain operates in a simple, intuitive fashion, with one chemical for joy, one chemical for sadness, one chemical for anger, etc., but the reality is way more complex and nuanced.

For example, even something well-studied like dopamine, which has been strongly linked with the brain's addiction circuitry, doesn't necessarily stimulate any sort of direct pleasurable feeling as people often infer. It seems to work in a much subtler way, modulating learning, attention, and goal-seeking behavior. A recent study found that it doesn't even necessarily spike when good things happen, but tends to increase in response to unexpected events, good or bad.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#34
post #33

I've noticed a strong pop-psych trend these days of referring to one's own feelings or experiences in terms of neurotransmitters. e.g. "I'm hooked on the dopamine rush of such-and-such activity," "I'm feeling blue today, my serotonin must be low," etc. This drives me crazy. It's pure pseudoscience, and I hear it from people who should know better. Scientifically, we have very little idea what chemicals are actually b…

> "I'm feeling blue today, my serotonin must be low," etc. This drives me crazy. It's pure pseudoscience,

Yeah. I think it's a pseudoscience too. Even though 5HTP and St. John's Wort produce a 'happy feeling' to me and many others. It doesn't last. Even with modern day SSRIs and other depression meds, pill holidays are recommended. Pill holidays shows me that they are an imperfect solution. I would tell a person in a wheelchair to 'try and walk it off' for a few days/weeks. That's unfair to their illness, yet psych does that with their meds.

> but the reality is way more complex and nuanced.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Hopefully, we'll have a medical breakthrough in psych in the next 20 years. With all the investment, I'm optimistic.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#35
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, while I don't personally have experience with a lot of illegal drugs, if you ask anyone who does he will tell you that there are drugs that nearly instantly make you happy without having to wait weeks for the drugs to have a subtle effect on your thought processes. These illegal drugs may or may not be too dangerous to use regularly to treat depression, but it's worth noting the fact that it's clearly not "impo…

Yeah I've been wondering about that. How the hell does mdma work if it's not serotonin. I always understood that the euphoria was caused by a flood of serotonin in your brain.

I can't speak for MDMA, but I have experimented (ok, recreated) with psilocin (shrooms), 4-ACO-DMT, and DMT, which are all serotonin agonists.

The best I can describe it is that a high enough dose feels like putting your brain into debugging mode and then cycling through hundreds of circuits simultaneously. It's not so much "I am experiencing happy now" as "I am experiencing happy, sad, confused, interested, pulsating colors, fractals, childlike wonder, fear, and every other cognitive state simultaneously or in rapid succession."

Some people get very spiritual about it, but I think you kind of have to be a spiritually inclined person anyway to have that specific experience. I always saw it more of giving the hardware a good jolt and seeing what falls out. It's pretty common to go from laughing uncontrollably, to inconsolable sadness, and back again, fairly quickly. This is where a lot of the fear about "bad trips" comes from, but I've found you can manage that with practice and having experienced people tripping with you or babysitting.

I do think there are therapeutic benefits though. Even if there are difficult periods, I find I always felt happier, more ok with the world and open to new experiences and attitudes for up to weeks after words. The article briefly mentions how there's a hypothesis that depression is possibly an effect of individuals who "over learn" negative experiences and become fixated on negative outcomes, and this makes a lot of sense to me. Aside from a sort of "purging" feeling just from such intense bursts of emotions, I could see how it helped to kind of kick me out of the traps of negative and habitual thinking and emotions. Maybe it helped my neurons "relearn" there are other experiences, emotions, and modes of thinking that I can access too?

This is all anecdotal evidence though, gathered while under severe impairment, so take it with that caveat. I would bet that aside from the legal issues, the hardest part of investigating things like psychedelics in a scientific way is that every experience is inherently subjective and personal. Trying to describe and talk about them gets very squishy very quickly.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#36
post #33

I've noticed a strong pop-psych trend these days of referring to one's own feelings or experiences in terms of neurotransmitters. e.g. "I'm hooked on the dopamine rush of such-and-such activity," "I'm feeling blue today, my serotonin must be low," etc. This drives me crazy. It's pure pseudoscience, and I hear it from people who should know better. Scientifically, we have very little idea what chemicals are actually b…

> "I'm feeling blue today, my serotonin must be low," etc. This drives me crazy. It's pure pseudoscience, Yeah. I think it's a pseudoscience too. Even though 5HTP and St. John's Wort produce a 'happy feeling' to me and many others. It doesn't last. Even with modern day SSRIs and other depression meds, pill holidays are recommended. Pill holidays shows me that they are an imperfect solution. I would tell a person in a…

You need to be careful with the pill holiday thing. When I was taking venlafaxine, the withdrawl happened very fast and was miserable... if I missed two days I was in trouble.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#37

After feeling very down, so much that I didn't felt like myself, I started to experiment with herbal supplements. Valerian to sleep, but my problem wasn't lack of sleep. St John's Wort for mood, but I didn't feel moody. I tried 5-htp, which from my understanding is a precursor to the biosynthesis of Serotonin. The effect was immediate. I felt light headed, buzzed even. I felt as if I had suddenly woken up in a bright…

Relevant part of this comment: "I am no brain scientist." You probably could have had the same effect from a sugar pill.

Why would you claim this? From what I have read 5-Hydroxytryptophan seem like a widely accepted supplement for issues with Serotonin and/or depression and mood. The only articles that I have found that say it might not be of use are studies that simply say that 5-HTP is better than placebo but that we can't say more yet because of lack of researches. Edit: and possible heart valves issues if you do not take it correctly

"5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP), also known as oxitriptan (INN), is a naturally occurring amino acid and chemical precursor as well as a metabolic intermediate in the biosynthesis of the neurotransmitters serotonin and melatonin from tryptophan." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-Hydroxytryptophan)

"Preliminary studies indicate that 5-HTP may work as well as certain antidepressant drugs to treat people with mild-to-moderate depression. Like the class of antidepressants known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), which includes fluoxetine (Prozac) and sertraline (Zoloft), 5-HTP increases the levels of serotonin in the brain. One study compared the effects of 5-HTP to fluvoxamine (Luvox) in 63 people and found that those who were given 5-HTP did just as well as those who received Luvox. They also had fewer side effects than the Luvox group. However, these studies were too small to say for sure if 5-HTP works. More research is needed." (https://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/5hydroxytry...)

etc, etc, burden of proof to you...

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=5-Hydroxytryptophan&hl=e...

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#38

After feeling very down, so much that I didn't felt like myself, I started to experiment with herbal supplements. Valerian to sleep, but my problem wasn't lack of sleep. St John's Wort for mood, but I didn't feel moody. I tried 5-htp, which from my understanding is a precursor to the biosynthesis of Serotonin. The effect was immediate. I felt light headed, buzzed even. I felt as if I had suddenly woken up in a bright…

Relevant part of this comment: "I am no brain scientist." You probably could have had the same effect from a sugar pill.

5HTP definitely works. In fact the ones you get in the health food shop (in the UK), seem to have too high a dose.

I seem to get sleepy from them, (but unable to sleep), + a very buzzy mood - similar to other things that can cause too much serotonin.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I'm feeling blue today, my serotonin must be low," etc. This drives me crazy. It's pure pseudoscience, Yeah. I think it's a pseudoscience too. Even though 5HTP and St. John's Wort produce a 'happy feeling' to me and many others. It doesn't last. Even with modern day SSRIs and other depression meds, pill holidays are recommended. Pill holidays shows me that they are an imperfect solution. I would tell a person in a…

You need to be careful with the pill holiday thing. When I was taking venlafaxine, the withdrawl happened very fast and was miserable... if I missed two days I was in trouble.

My "discontinuation syndrome" was coming off desvenlafaxine. My access to it was suddenly taken away so I had no choice but to sit through the brain zaps for probably a week or two. You can't be sure how long it's going to last and that shit is as unpleasant as it gets.

Re: Is serotonin the happy brain chemical?

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relevant part of this comment: "I am no brain scientist." You probably could have had the same effect from a sugar pill.

Why would you claim this? From what I have read 5-Hydroxytryptophan seem like a widely accepted supplement for issues with Serotonin and/or depression and mood. The only articles that I have found that say it might not be of use are studies that simply say that 5-HTP is better than placebo but that we can't say more yet because of lack of researches. Edit: and possible heart valves issues if you do not take it correc…

>Why would you claim this? From what I have read 5-Hydroxytryptophan seem like a widely accepted supplement for issues with Serotonin and/or depression and mood.

The problem is lots of the core science behind brain chemistry is sort of bogus, non reproducible stuff. And a lot of it is sponsored by pharma companies who have an extra motivation for getting (and showing) only the "good" results.

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