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What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

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Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#261

Post by tomp »

edraferi wrote: post #83
panic wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter if it was "more flirtatious than forced". A manager should not flirt with their reports. Managers are supposed to be responsible for the growth of their employees; making an employee so uncomfortable with you that they run away from you on sight is a spectacular failure to do your job.

Correct. It's harder to enforce judgements on this kind of thing though, because ambiguity exists about the intention. It's much easier to punish clear "do me a favor for the promotion/bonus" situations. I agree a blanket "no romance with direct reports" rule is best. I'm just astonished she didn't get an immediate transfer to another group. I would be livid if this was happening and HR didn't remove the power dynami…

> I agree a blanket "no romance with direct reports" rule is best.

So what would you do if a manager and his/her report fall in love (mutually)? Fire the manager? If not, then your "rule" can't be applied indiscriminately.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#262

Post by tomp »

hluska wrote: post #142
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to write this comment pretty carefully to avoid vindicating the offender or blaming the victim. It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable (this is not her fault), and perhaps the offender was picking up on signals that weren't there. The situation needed to be fixed, but the behaviour mentioned in the article could have been more flirtatious than forced. A zero tolerance…

Okay, let me make this clear. Under absolutely no circumstances is it even remotely appropriate for a manager to flirt with any direct reports. It is always 100% wrong and there is never any room for this type of bullshit.

So what would you do if a manager and his/her report fall in love and get married? Fire the manager?

If not, then it's hard to say "it is always 100% wrong".

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#263

Post by tomp »

Ntrails wrote: post #59
mbrutsch wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit ou…

See - this is interesting. There is definitely a sense that in "ye olden days" people were stauncher. There's a bit of application of so called common sense where a lot of behaviours can be shut down by addressing them. Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive, and not being able to protect themself from something that they should never have to deal with - it's…

> Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive

Seriously? There's a difference between assigning blame and saying what could be done better. If I tell you that you should maybe next time lock your car after it was stolen, I still believe that the actual thieves are to blame.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#264

Post by wkimeria »

y04nn wrote: post #84
zzleeper wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that often you might not be entirely sure about what's going on. In her case, the kiss in the cheek might just be cultural confusion (in Spanish-speaking countries we do that even with strangers). Of course, after the lap thing... I don't even have words... How can you treat other people like that.. you are put in a position of power/responsibility and they use it to degrade others..

I feel like she is lacking self confidence, personality. Is she living in a fantasy world where everybody is kind? I was not here, so I don't want to juge, but she has only been asked to sit on ones lap, she could have strongly refuse and asked why she would do that in the first place. She should have shown strong signs of rejection, express the fact that is make her uncomfortable and asked him to stop. If he does no…

This comment right here (thankfully, its been downvoted) is a good example of what the problem is and the environment that women face in the workplace

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#265

Post by tomp »

hluska wrote: post #171
sheraz wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it is not bullshit. This whole topic is filled with loaded words like "harassment" and "victim." Furthermore, workplace harassment laws are tipped in the females favor. If she even perceives something, then it happened. If you think that sending a wink to someone is treating them as a lower life form, then I don't think there is much I can say...

You are wrong. Sexual harassment laws are somewhat tipped in the victim's favour, but only because law in general is tipped slightly in the victim's favour. This is not about laws favouring women, it is just about how the law works. Simply, the victim's feelings matter. There is a difference between a wink and a wink after something sexually suggestive. If you can't understand that difference then yeah, there's nothi…

> law in general is tipped slightly in the victim's favour

Not really, at least in the US it's tipped in the innocent person's favor (i.e. innocent until proven guilty).

> Simply, the victim's feelings matter.

So, if I'm hurt by how stupid what you wrote is, should you be lose your job or be jailed?

Basing laws on feelings is the most stupid and abuse-prone idea I've ever heard.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#266

Post by rrauenza »

mbrutsch wrote: post #39
AznHisoka wrote: post #5

Is this really a problem with Silicon Valley? I think it's an universal problem you'll find in all industries.

My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit ou…

Isn't this classic Survivorship Bias?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#267

Post by hluska »

tomp wrote: post #262
hluska wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, let me make this clear. Under absolutely no circumstances is it even remotely appropriate for a manager to flirt with any direct reports. It is always 100% wrong and there is never any room for this type of bullshit.

So what would you do if a manager and his/her report fall in love and get married? Fire the manager? If not, then it's hard to say "it is always 100% wrong".

Decisions like that cannot happen in a vacuum so I would have to collect more information. For example, did the manager disclose the relationship to his/her direct manager before the wedding? If so, were there any controls put in place to make sure that the report was treated fairly?

And then, what about the rest of the team? How do they feel about the relationship? Does it hurt their ability to do their jobs? Do they feel they are treated fairly?

The way that you have worded that scenario makes me think that nobody in the organization knew about the relationship before the wedding. In that case, I would likely want to fire the manager, though I can see how that could open up a metric shit ton of litigation, so I may not get my wish.

If I couldn't outright terminate the manager, at minimum, I would make sure that he/she was no longer his/her spouse's direct manager. That might mean a transfer to another department, or it might even mean a demotion.

Perhaps most damaging, I would never particularly trust the manager or his/her judgment again. Continuing to supervise someone who you are in love with is just an incredible conflict of interest. Keeping it a secret and not giving me the chance to make sure that there are controls in place just makes it all the worse.

Just a few notes to my answer:

1.) I am Canadian and Canadian courts have ruled that managers have an implied duty to make sure that the workplace is not poisoned by sexual harassment. Further, they have ruled that managers also have an implied duty to protect the company itself from any sort of harassment claim.

2.) I am a huge fan of written policy forbidding romantic relationships between a manager and his/her direct reports.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#268

Post by bitL »

qb45 wrote: post #235
bitL wrote: post #230

As somebody that has endured the same the other way round - being hit on by many (even married) female colleagues, HR girls, having a female manager attempting to invite me to her room in the hotel, girls repeatedly stalking me at my apartment, e.g. after I performed on a piano at a party, even just meeting random girls that would dump their boyfriends on the spot, completely shaking with excitement (me and her BF ju…

> if I wrote a blog about my experiences I'd become a laughing stock of the Internet So write a blog post on what lead you to such abundance :)

Win everything you can as a kid whether it is sports or scientific competitions, then decide it's not worth it (winner is the lonely one), grow in an environment where girls are looking like supermodels so you aren't intimidated by their looks and can talk to them normally and just don't care that much about them, learn as many arts as you can, like playing an instrument, how to use chiaroscuro, how to make pro photography, direct movies, make computer games and cool graphics, run your own businesses, be amongst top students of your universities, be very tall, have a nice personality with very firm boundaries, go deep into conversations with girls then eject to avoid boredom on both sides, be surprising, don't be needy, nerdy, geeky, abrasive or inept, have a sister that tries to break your frame since you were child but was never successful, have a vision you follow and push for a better world, learn at least 6 foreign languages, travel around the world, be fit, be able to tell off declining people with perceived power over you when they behave like retards in front of everyone etc. Have fun! :-P

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#269

Post by the_af »

tomp wrote: post #260
the_af wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. There are many cases where your "explicit opt-out" scenario doesn't work: 1- It's not ok for a colleague to assume they can enter your office naked unless you tell them not to. They cannot assume they have your permission to publicly expose their dangly bits near you simply because you didn't tell them they shouldn't. 2- It's not ok for colleagues to take money out of your wallet and use it unless you tell them n…

1 (public nudity) and 2 (stealing) are illegal. Flirting and talking about sex (3) aren't.

That's sort of missing the point. Replace "public nudity" with "licking your ears". So your boss likes licking the ears of subordinates. You're trying to have some meeting with him, behind closed doors, and he walks right next to you and suddenly his tongue is in your ear.

"Wait, what's the big deal? Geez! Just tell me if you don't like having your ears licked, there's no need to make a fuss about it. I thought you were a cool guy, but now I see you aren't."

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#270

Post by dang »

enraged_camel wrote: post #77

I have a feeling that if your mother read this comment she would tell you to cut this shit out.

You've taken this thread in a personally (and increasingly) rude direction. Please don't do that in HN comments. Comments should be civil and substantive or not posted in the first place.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10930401 and marked it off-topic.

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