What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google • Hacker News Board

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#201

Post by ethbro » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:47 PM UTC

nikcub wrote: post #169

forgottenpass wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good way to wind up unhappy and alone at work. Chances are that anyone using that strategy and isn't miserable has a fair number of unspoken assumptions about acceptable behavior, and don't actually use that strategy but are slightly more guarded that normal so they think they do.

That not wanting to be sexually harassed would make someone unhappy and miserable in a workplace is exactly the problem.

You missed forgottenpass's more nuanced point.

"Not wanting to be sexually harassed would make someone unhappy and miserable in a workplace" was not the assertion. The assertion was "going to such extremes as to guarantee that no claims of sexual harassment could at any time be made against you would make you unhappy and miserable in a workplace".

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#202

Post by leothekim » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:48 PM UTC

mbrutsch wrote: post #39

AznHisoka wrote: post #5

Is this really a problem with Silicon Valley? I think it's an universal problem you'll find in all industries.

My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit ou…

> I read these tales of woe and wonder why people today lack the intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves, rather than resigning themselves to the status of "victim".

Interestingly enough, the author of the article never calls herself a victim or uses the word at all. Sure she was scared, and yeah we don't know what she said to her manager. But she's talking about her feelings about being sexually harassed in a very public forum, subject to all that comes with presenting your viewpoint on the internet. She's encouraging others to speak out about it, presumably to find the "intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves" that you find so lacking in people today.

She's also gone on to co-found a company. That doesn't sound like a victim to me, or a tale of woe.

I don't think sharing your feelings about being sexually harassed means you're acting like a victim. Quite the opposite. You're pointing out that this happens, and that if it happened to you then you're not alone, and it's not ok. There's strength in empathy.

Your mom sounded pretty tough and she undoubtedly dealt with a lot of BS, but I'm certain she would have appreciated someone telling her that that BS was not ok. That's not being a victim or being weak, that's just being human.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#203

Post by shallowpedantic » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:48 PM UTC

nahiluhmot wrote: post #52

skj wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is your complaint? How silly.

In all fairness, parent's username is shallowpedantic.

well I can't disappoint the fans!

oh please, she's fine. she used it as an excuse to shamelessly plug her company, if anything it served as jet-fuel for her. I stand by my point - the company did not directly harass her but a member of the company did. If she was as hurt as she claimed to be she wouldn't ever reference google as a place where she used to work. And none of you have offered any replies of any substance, merely snide, malicious comments in an attempt to lower me to your level.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#204

Post by hluska » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:51 PM UTC

sheraz wrote: post #179

hluska wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. Sexual harassment laws are somewhat tipped in the victim's favour, but only because law in general is tipped slightly in the victim's favour. This is not about laws favouring women, it is just about how the law works. Simply, the victim's feelings matter. There is a difference between a wink and a wink after something sexually suggestive. If you can't understand that difference then yeah, there's nothi…

And there in lies the problem -- we are legislating about "feelings." We have delegated to the state what our personal responsibility should have been all along. "Hey, asshole -- keep it in your pants or I will tell the whole office that you went through an Asian-fetish. Now can we discuss this TPS report or not?" Secondly, a wink after something sexually suggestive is a little redundant, wouldn't you say?

You have stopped trying to be productive and are just being argumentative now. Your third and fourth paragraphs are in particularly poor taste.

I don't understand what is so difficult here. Her manager harassed her and the fear and embarrassment that she felt were real. If the genders were reversed, the result would have been the same. That is because in a civilized society, if you act in a way that makes someone uncomfortable, there needs to be accountability.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#205

Post by thedz » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

spoiler wrote: post #177

thedz wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's telling that the female HR person felt that she was overreacting. At no point in the article does she mention the manager touching her inappropriately, or saying anything to imply that her job or compensation depended on her accepting his advances. It was a female colleague, not HR. According to the article, HR was fully behind her, as they should be. > This honestly sounds like he was a guy who got attracted…

My friend was in the same position about a year ago, and she told her boss (directly, and in private conversation) that she's not interested, after he didn't interpret a few other subtle hints. She still works there. Furthermore, she the boss and some other colleagues were cracking jokes about it during a team building event that I was invited to. Edit: I realise this is anecdotal, but it feels to me like the author…

It doesn't sound like he was -- he apologized, and they moved her to a different group

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#206

Post by isnullorempty » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:54 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #197

isnullorempty wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if it's someone you aren't interested in, if a hot guy you liked made eye contact a few times and smiled it would make your day. Am I right?

Well I'm a married heterosexual man, so the universe of "hot guys I like" is pretty small. And I don't know why you insist on continuing to argue against points I'm not making. I'm saying continued unwanted advances = harassment, regardless of the existence or lack of "clear rejection." If you flirt with someone at work (what exactly are you being paid to do?) and they reciprocate, it's not unwanted. If you do it onc…

So it's not the act that's harassment, it's the relative level of attractiveness of the person committing the act. Interesting.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#207

Post by ethbro » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:54 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #100

mbrutsch wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mother was anything but "weak and powerless". Sure, standing up for yourself isn't "ladylike", and not everyone is willing or able to do it, but the current assumptions are "she is weak and powerless" and "he is a big strong bully". That dynamic is easily changed, but you have to be willing to stand up for yourself.

This isn't about your mother. Your mother managed to push the problem onto someone else, which is nice for her. There will always be people who, for whatever reason, don't. Is your attitude that it's acceptable for these people, who do not push the problem onto someone else, to be sexually assaulted? If it's not acceptable, why is it incorrect for the victim to seek help? If I were burgled, I would seek help. If I we…

> Is your attitude that it's acceptable for these people, who do not push the problem onto someone else, to be sexually assaulted?

In a normally common-sense forum here, I'm kind of amazed by the number of comments here that go straight to the nuclear extension of the other's point. Can we assume that we're all against sexual assault here and have a bit more charitable discourse?

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#208

Post by skj » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:55 PM UTC

y04nn wrote: post #178

skj wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victim blaming.

No, I think she is a victim, but we are looking to the wrong culprit. She is a victim of her bad education that makes her feel like a victime more that someone with charisma and personality that could have easily respond. That is a big problem with women education.

You seem like a bad person.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#209

Post by Jean-Philipe » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:56 PM UTC

zupreme wrote: post #196

Jean-Philipe wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, your view is not valid. Assuming you actually read the article, you probably didn't read this part: "In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility, and told that “all men go through an Asian fetish at some time,” among other wildly discomfiting, work-inappropriate things. Then I was asked to dinner alone." That racist comment alone is reas…

Help me understand how it's not appropriate to directly tell someone who is making it obvious that they are attracted to you that you aren't interested. If you make it known that you aren't interested and the person continues. Then it becomes harassment. So I refute your position. We all have to set boundaries in our relationships and the author of the article is no exception.

As I understand you, she would have to "opt out" of his advances or otherwise she is implicitly saying "yes", is that how you think?

As I see it, she should not have to "set boundaries" nor should she even have to deal with such advances in any way. It's a working environment and not a dating club! What he did (ask her to sit on his lap) has no place in a professional setting.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#210

Post by Joeboy » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 3:00 PM UTC

nikcub wrote: post #194

Joeboy wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the word "when" between the second and third of those lines. The third line restricts the scope of the second.

Which is why I quoted the third point, as it covers both the OP and the Women In Tech survey It would be an extremely narrow definition to attempt to carve out unwanted sexual advances, especially from a superior, in a workplace not being sexual harassment.

I definitely agree that unwanted sexual advances sometimes constitute sexual harassment. I don't think it's at all clear that all the incidences talked about in the survey constitute sexual harassment. I don't mind if you disagree on this point, which is a less weird position than the one you stated earlier.