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What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

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Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#91

Post by edraferi »

noir_lord wrote: post #72
rplnt wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to think that I am (or we, men, are) blind to this. If it happens as much as is reported (I don not work in SV, but I'd guess Eastern-ish Europe would be worse), then it must happen before out eyes, or even worse, we are the ones doing it. I honestly can't think of such incident, but this suggest that there were many that I simply ignored, didn't see them as such. edit: To make it clear, I definitely did…

It does happen and I've seen it, I had to take my own manager to one side when I was team leader and explain to him his behaviour was unacceptable and he'd likely end up with an HR complaint. In that case it was jokes that I don't think had any malice but would definitely look bad in front of HR.

I think this is one of the most useful things a male team member can do to create a positive atmosphere and fight back against this nonsense.

Speak up! Diffuse situations in the moment when you can, provide private feedback when needed, make corporate complaints when necessary.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#92

Post by acdha »

mbrutsch wrote: post #39
AznHisoka wrote: post #5

Is this really a problem with Silicon Valley? I think it's an universal problem you'll find in all industries.

My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit ou…

You should spend less time condemning other people and more time reading what they wrote.

It's great that your mother felt confident standing up to abuse. Not everyone does — and someone early in their career, knowing that their entire life trajectory can be affected by their boss's reviews and networking, is going to feel different than, say, an established figure in the field or a worker at a union shop who can expect their support. The author of this article appears to have gone to Google directly from college and it's only reasonable to worry about jeopardizing your first big job by leaving quickly.

The other thing to pay attention to is the nature of the abuse. It's easy to reject some guy who makes a crude leer in front of witnesses. Her former boss was apparently more subtle than that since he managed to get at least one female coworker to take his side excusing his behavior.

That's not an accident - the men who do this kind of thing usually aren't the crude street-harassers of stereotype and are smart enough to pick women who are more likely to be vulnerable while leaving as little clear evidence as possible.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#93

Post by Alex3917 »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #63
nikcub wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The universal rate of sexual harassment of females is 31%[1] in Silicon Valley it is 60%[2]. The restaurant industry is notorious for sexual harassment and their rate of harassment from superiors is 66%[3] - about par with Silicon Valley. So, yes, it is a problem in Silicon Valley - and ignorance of the severity of the problem is a large part of the problem (you'll find a lot of research on sexual harassment in other…

The 60% number refers to "unwanted sexual advances", not sexual harassment. Only 30% received unwanted sexual advances more than once, so that seems like a solid upper bound on actual sexual harassment. If you consider even a single unwanted sexual advance to be harassment then you get silly conclusions which I expect you don't endorse. For example, I've been "harassed" repeatedly by fatties and gay guys in the past…

> The 60% number refers to "unwanted sexual advances", not sexual harassment.

Right, this is why I stopped reading the article after the first sentence and flagged it. One-off unwanted sexual advances are not only not sexual harassment, they're specifically exempted by law from being so.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#94

Post by bunkydoo »

This is why corporations won't exist in their current form by the end of the century. I firmly believe that working solo prevents every problem the workplace could possibly present. As a LGBT male I feel that even though all these companies try to prance around with rainbow flags and make racial and gender based hiring quotas - it just furthers segregation. By abandoning the fuckers in HR and fighting for your own place in this world, you get places. If anyone were to question my sexual preferences or harass me in a coffee shop, I'd clock that bastard across the face, drag him to the pavement and stomp his sorry ass. Try that at work in your sissy ass silicon valley office.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#95

Post by mbrutsch »

EliRivers wrote: post #80
mbrutsch wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive You and every other commenter seems to think I don't understand that. Not sure why.

It's because people give the benefit of the doubt and don't want to think you're the kind of guy who blames the weak and powerless when bullies abuse them.

My mother was anything but "weak and powerless". Sure, standing up for yourself isn't "ladylike", and not everyone is willing or able to do it, but the current assumptions are "she is weak and powerless" and "he is a big strong bully". That dynamic is easily changed, but you have to be willing to stand up for yourself.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#96

Post by shinigami »

isnullorempty wrote: post #66

What happened to the woman in the article was unacceptable _if_ she clearly signaled she wasn't interested. On the other hand some women now think "Why won't that cute guy come hit on me?, is he shy or gay?" No he is worried you will report him for harassment. Forget ever trying to date someone from work it's a minefield (as is dating in general!).

Yes, life must be so hard without being able to date people from work.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#97

Post by cmdkeen »

marincounty wrote: post #65
qb45 wrote: post #4

> In the span of a week, I went from feeling excited and motivated about my job to feeling lethargic, anxious, and unenthused. (...) I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility (...) There exists a breed of narcissists who are so incapable of tolerating rejection that they will consistently ignore every sign of it. In fact, the less you are satisfied with…

I'm a hetrosexual male who's done everything from construction to coding. At every job I've had--workers, mainly guys, but so, so many women too, discuss their sexual life. (In all honestly, women have told me too more personal things (sexual in nature) at work, over men. The big difference is these women had no power over my career. And the difference is they weren't "hitting" on me. When I was a younger man--yes so…

Again there's a specific issue about power imbalances. A colleague says some things you don't like it is quite easy to ask them to refrain. With a manager that may not be the case, especially if you're new to the world of work.

Managing people is a responsibility and you can't act like people you have power over are just your colleagues. Perhaps in time if you build up a close working relationship with people you can be friends who do or say things that are more risky - because you've established boundaries.

It's also worth saying that if a colleague is being inappropriate the first stop doesn't have to be HR, it can be a manager - they are there to ensure teams work well. A good manager should even pre-empt the complaint if they observe the inappropriate behaviour. That's what makes it so bad when the manager is the one at fault.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#98

Post by mbrutsch »

acdha wrote: post #92
mbrutsch wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated. I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit ou…

You should spend less time condemning other people and more time reading what they wrote. It's great that your mother felt confident standing up to abuse. Not everyone does — and someone early in their career, knowing that their entire life trajectory can be affected by their boss's reviews and networking, is going to feel different than, say, an established figure in the field or a worker at a union shop who can exp…

> You should spend less time condemning other people and more time reading what they wrote.

You could spend less time assuming I didn't read everything. The attitude of "saying she should stand up for herself, at least once, before going to HR" is hardly "condemning".

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#99

Post by lmm »

DasIch wrote: post #36
Aeolos wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you really trust HR to do the right thing?

If you can't trust HR to do the right thing or they don't, it's time to leave.

If you've privileged to have adequate savings and good prospects, sure. For a lower-middle-class graduate on their first job it isn't always that simple.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#100

Post by EliRivers »

mbrutsch wrote: post #95
EliRivers wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because people give the benefit of the doubt and don't want to think you're the kind of guy who blames the weak and powerless when bullies abuse them.

My mother was anything but "weak and powerless". Sure, standing up for yourself isn't "ladylike", and not everyone is willing or able to do it, but the current assumptions are "she is weak and powerless" and "he is a big strong bully". That dynamic is easily changed, but you have to be willing to stand up for yourself.

This isn't about your mother. Your mother managed to push the problem onto someone else, which is nice for her. There will always be people who, for whatever reason, don't.

Is your attitude that it's acceptable for these people, who do not push the problem onto someone else, to be sexually assaulted? If it's not acceptable, why is it incorrect for the victim to seek help? If I were burgled, I would seek help. If I were mugged, I would seek help. Why is it incorrect for me to seek help if I am sexually assaulted by a manager?

Furthermore, given that my employer has a duty to ensure a safe workplace, why should I not upbraid my employer for failing in that duty, or advise them of the problem so that they can correct it? If I saw a dangerously loose carpet, I would tell them. If I noticed some buzzing wiring, I would tell them. Why should I not tell them that one of their employees is sexually harassing people?

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