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Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months

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Re: Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months

#241

As they always say, this time is different. My opinion is that the tech sector has greatly expanded since 2000, not just in amount of investment available, but also types of business tech companies are actually in. So maybe there is a web/ad bubble and it might pop, but how much that affects individual company is more nuanced. Unsophisticated investors might still lump Google/Twitter/Tesla/AMD into the same "tech sec…

i have been thinking about this a lot. Peter Theil talks a lot about paypal when they were burning cash, but they had finally started to get the business fundamentals together. He calculated, i am approximating but it was close to, 80% of the companies worth came after 20 years. My thinking is that public markets are shitty, so almost all of the value capture takes place way before a company is worth it, it stays pri…

> almost all of the value capture takes place way before a company is worth it

Then almost all of the investment risk must similarly take place way before a company is "worth it". Unless you are proposing the divorce of expected risk from expected return.

Re: Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months

#242

As they always say, this time is different. My opinion is that the tech sector has greatly expanded since 2000, not just in amount of investment available, but also types of business tech companies are actually in. So maybe there is a web/ad bubble and it might pop, but how much that affects individual company is more nuanced. Unsophisticated investors might still lump Google/Twitter/Tesla/AMD into the same "tech sec…

i have been thinking about this a lot. Peter Theil talks a lot about paypal when they were burning cash, but they had finally started to get the business fundamentals together. He calculated, i am approximating but it was close to, 80% of the companies worth came after 20 years. My thinking is that public markets are shitty, so almost all of the value capture takes place way before a company is worth it, it stays pri…

> Look at google. They know search is about to change majorly, they have already spun into a meta-architecture.

In what way is search about to change majorly?

To me that seemed more like a way to keep experimental projects without affecting Google as a stock.

Re: Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of them have marketplaces for custom made goods (for the most part at least compared to etsy) and both are in competition with each other to expand their marketplaces to as far as they can go. Seems like it would be a good fit to me. I'm not sure how it ultimately gets integrated it (maybe it doesn't?).

What about Amazon? They launched a competing marketplace in October: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/08/business/amazon-challenges... But, don't let that stop you...

I was just about to ask about Amazon's Handmade.

50K items posted in the last 30 days and 100-200k sellers (who knows if that excludes inactive). Perhaps it has gained some ground.

Re: Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months

#244
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soon we will see uber, airbnb and dropbox added to this list. The problem is the new VC-funded startup model is a sham to rip off the public. Basically build a bunch of hype around fad-based, unprofitable companies with unsustainable business models and capture massive valuation of ~50x sales before going IPO and then insiders dump all the overvalued shares on the naive dumb money and only stick around long enough to…

Disagree entirely. Twitter? No good way to monetize. Groupon? Failed to monetize effectively after virality faded and without a moat competitors did the same thing. Yelp? A web version of the BBB protection scheme whose profit comes from the shake down protection racket against small businesses, not from users. Zynga had no moat and other companies quickly did the same thing with much leaner overhead, like King and a…

You have to ask yourself: how indispensable are these companies?

People can live without Groupon. It hasn't changed habits fundamentally.

Uber and Airbnb, on the other hand, have changed consumers' habits.

If you can make something a habit, you're going to win (see: cigarette companies)

Re: Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months

#245
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the ones who really ate their lunch were companies like Shopify.

Speaking with some knowledge of the company, it boggles the mind a little that they failed to snap up Shopify (or more likely one of that company's scrappier competitors) when Etsy got like $27M in 2008. Every single time Etsy didn't help a seller set up their own e-commerce site, someone else did, and this happened hundreds of thousands of times. And is still happening. But Etsy struggled with leadership and technic…

But in the early days many Etsy sellers didn't have their own e-commerce sites. A lot of them didn't even have websites outside of Etsy, often just a Facebook page. I'm not sure that's changed much.

Re: Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months

#246

The lockup agreement expired. Looks like employees and executives are selling up big time. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/etsy-shares-fall-after-expi...

To be fair, most of the loss occurred in the past year before that:

* -72% from 4/17/15 to 1/10/16

* -3% more if you extend through 1/11/16

* -2% more than that if you extend through end of week

https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&...

Side note: I wish there was a tool to track such dates and notify you as a (potential) public shareholder.

Re: Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months

#247
post #200

etsy is clear case of poor management, just taking a brief look at their financial statements it is clear they are doing something clearly wrong. Their revenue is growing but their expenses are growing at the same rate so they remain unprofitable. from 2014 to 2015 revenue grew from 29 million to 45 million per quarter while general expenses grew from 22 million to 31 million. Amazon is another company that does this…

Amazon is frequently in the red.

Amazon reinvests a ton of money into expanding itself. Investors are aware of this.

Re: Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i have been thinking about this a lot. Peter Theil talks a lot about paypal when they were burning cash, but they had finally started to get the business fundamentals together. He calculated, i am approximating but it was close to, 80% of the companies worth came after 20 years. My thinking is that public markets are shitty, so almost all of the value capture takes place way before a company is worth it, it stays pri…

> My thinking is that public markets are shitty, so almost all of the value capture takes place way before a company is worth it, In a public market, capitalism [generally] prices things appropriately so its hard to make a killing on it. But, you can still make money. That is the basic function of a fair market and its important it continues to exist.

I studied economics in school, however I was always a sub par student.

The market is very very efficient at what it is optimized to do, I don't think "fair" has any objective meaning in a diff of the bid ask spread, but I get your point.

To drill down on my assumptions, the market is optimized to price things based on what people are willing to pay which is supply v. demand, i am not disputing that.

What I am saying is that the price people pay for things is based on information which is distributed highly asymetrically.

Information is siloed efficiently by large brokers (of information) and even then, is largely narrow. Barriers to entry have never been lower here, but also facing massive follow on lag time.

You can build a search engine than google could when it started, but you will be using mostly their tools e.g webkit, v8, big query, tensorflow or something by a similar entity or OSS.

So pricing information is based on what uninformed people are doing in a market. So the price is not in line with reality to the extent of how the same actors would act with all people knowing the same thing.

Everyone on an airplane pays a different price for their seat. That, in my eyes, is "fair" but unimportant.

However, public markets serve as liquidity for companies. I have been asking myself what the point of them really is.

Volume of traded firms shares must keep being traded, because people need liquidity. However, companies no longer need public markets to get started and grow. So investors obviously expect an exit, but companies have shorter lifespans, they also are no longer insulated from global macro trends.

Obviously, "public markets" will end soon and be replaced with "markets". Trade restrictions will get lifted as markets open globally. People will still not know how to participate and this will be bad short term. Long term good obviously.

So I guess what I am saying is, a large part of the economy is a private market, public markets are more risky, less valuable and cater to people who have an asymmetrical advantage of eithet information or positioning, so why the fuck would anyone bet on them? Because a diversified portfolio has gone up for the last 10 years? Makes no sense, they aren't nearly as useful as they once were.

The pricing mechanism of markets is no longer calibrated correctly.

Edit: meant to say that was the bubble. Markets have to exist because companies are already sold into them, however, good companies don't go public but people keep putting more money into the bad companies equity. So something line twitter coyld fail, or even lehman, GE isnt even faring that well. So these mediocre assets are being driven up as people put money into their shares, but their discretionary spending goes to private companies. As I said, i am not like an economist or something, so I dont really understand what the fuck is going on, but 1) it seems pretty insane and 2) it seems like no one else has any idea either.

Re: Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i have been thinking about this a lot. Peter Theil talks a lot about paypal when they were burning cash, but they had finally started to get the business fundamentals together. He calculated, i am approximating but it was close to, 80% of the companies worth came after 20 years. My thinking is that public markets are shitty, so almost all of the value capture takes place way before a company is worth it, it stays pri…

> almost all of the value capture takes place way before a company is worth it Then almost all of the investment risk must similarly take place way before a company is "worth it". Unless you are proposing the divorce of expected risk from expected return.

I mentioned this below, but I disagree. I am not talking about Y Combinator or pre-seed stage funding. Companies are raising E rounds. Shitty companies are raising 10m a rounds.

* There are a shitty companies that are getting funding say raising ~20m in an A round.

* There are publicly traded companies that are in bad shape, GE, Twitter, Dropbox, Evernote can't even make it to the IPO and Yahoo.

* In between this, is where public markets were useful. They provided large scale liquidity for companies that needed to expand (often globally). Similarly, public investors needed to deploy excess capital to save for their futures.

* Now, the stock market is full of failing legacy companies and the pipeline of good companies is diverted. I am pretty bullish on Uber for example. While technically the IPO wouldn't touch the >7-10 trillion in the s & p, do you notice anything odd about this graph?[0] Bad companies are going public and failing, the pipeline of good companies are mostly staying private. Pricing, risk and market calibration are so out of wack that the last decade looks like this ^V^v so, not really sure how to make a risk

tl;dr I would feel more comfortable participating in Ubers previous funding round than buying apple, one of the s&p toip 50.

I was going to break down risk adjusted return, but I am not phenomenal at math nor finance, but again I found it pretty fucking insane. The sharpe ratio is like

"Risk Free Rate"

( 0-0.3 - "average return" ) / stdDev

So basically, in my super (likely incorrect) view, you have a pool of shitty assets that are largely correlated in a massively volatile timeperiod. This number is your control.

Then you measure against the degree you will beat the risk free rate, a negative number basically. Seems insane, but never was top in finance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%26P_500_Index#/media/File:S%...

Re: Etsy stock has lost 76% of its value in 9 months

#250
post #20

Isn't that the strategy these days? Extract as much value from a company and only then go public?

Yep, IPOs are the new down rounds. The founders/early investors sell shares on the private secondary market pre-IPO, leaving the public and the employees holding the bag after the IPO.

Why would that leave "the public" holding the bag? The IPO itself is a down round, which means the public is buying at a lower and, by that view, more "correct" price. But the drop in value has already happened - the public isn't losing out unless there's a further price drop, which is not what is being talked about and won't necessarily happen.

The ones losing out are, in some cases, the employees, and in some cases, the last stage investors. But the investors are usually investing in ways that more closely mimic debt than equity, and usually have ratchets to protect themselves.

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