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Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

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Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#111

Post by eli_gottlieb »

yc1010 wrote: post #22
mabbo wrote: post #9

The problem with bitcoin, as I see it, is that discussion of problems that may exist can lower the value of bitcoin- whether the problem is real or not. If you're heavily invested emotionally with bitcoins, you need to discuss these problems so that they can be solved. If you're heavily invested financially , you need to make sure no one talks about these problems, at least until you have a plan for how you're not go…

Well the problem is THAT DISCUSSION OF SOLUTIONS to bitcoin issues are being censored, with key people being banned from the usual discussion forums A decentralized currency where the development, mining and discussion is controlled by less than a dozen people which is a joke

>A decentralized currency where the development, mining and discussion is controlled by less than a dozen people which is a joke

Again: why does anyone think you can get a decentralized structure out of a property-norm design (commodity money, held privately as capital) designed to create centralization and hierarchy?

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#112

Post by blhack »

pcmaffey wrote: post #87

1. I have no idea how to get Bitcoin. A quick search takes me to several exchanges that look like torrent sites for pirating shit. 2. Nor has anyone presented me a compelling reason to get bitcoin (other than the future). Off the top of my head, if a company offered me an account that would take care of my online transactions in a secure way using Bitcoin, I might be interested. Maybe I'd put a few hundred in it each…

http://www.coinbase.com/

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#113

Post by bduerst »

StavrosK wrote: post #108
mabbo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only real compelling reason anyone has these days to buy a bitcoin seems to be for use on darknet markets, mostly to buy drugs. The merits of those markets are wonderful to discuss, but as I don't really have a use for drugs in my life right now, I have no need for bitcoins.

I don't know, have you tried to buy plane tickets with a credit card? It takes me a solid half hour every time, between the "verified by Visa" crap, the merchant not accepting the card and some failure on their system. With Bitcoin, you tap the link and press "confirm". It's miles ahead of any other payment system I know, including cash (because you don't have to be in proximity of the recipient).

>have you tried to buy plane tickets with a credit card? It takes me a solid half hour every time

Who exactly are you buying plane tickets from?

The last time I bought tickets, it took less than a minute to pay with a credit card. I spent more time searching for a flight with wifi.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#114

Post by outworlder »

markbnj wrote: post #93

I have never understood the bitcoin protocol very well, and I did not have time to read the entire posted article and its linked supporting pieces. That said, I did pick up that one of the major issues is that a few miners in China control a huge portion of the hash power and have an incentive not to allow growth. Given that computing power is so affordable, is it really not possible for some competing group to decid…

The problem is one of scale. Bitcoin is heavy resource-intensive. So much so, that your Core i7 can't really do anything. These days, not even the latest GPUs can compete. You really need specialized hardware, and a ton of it. And so, money.

It's not enough to spin a thousand VMs in AWS and call it a day.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#115

Post by Freak_NL »

dragontamer wrote: post #68
supster wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The money supply is fixed to 21 million. Fortunately, the coins are basically infinitely divisible, so as the coins become more valuable (assuming over the long run that coins are used for larger and larger amounts of commerce rather than speculation), small transactions simply happen at smaller units. In other words the system is steadily deflationary instead of the highly volatile inflationary system we currently h…

More importantly however, is the rent-seeking by BTC enthusiasts. BTC hoarders don't "deserve" any more wealth than later adopters, and yet wish to create wealth from nothingness and basically a giant Ponzi scheme. At least with stocks and companies, the stock actually means something: typically a vote for the board, or access to a dividend.

It seems strange to consider a currency as a viable alternative for other currencies, when a sizeable chunk of the total available sum of it is owned by a single person or group simply because they came up with the system, and another large part is in the hands of speculators. There is nothing fair about a currency that is so volatile in value by design and is essentially speculative in nature.

It is sad to see that this side of Bitcoin is not stressed more often.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#116

Post by markbnj »

outworlder wrote: post #114
markbnj wrote: post #93

I have never understood the bitcoin protocol very well, and I did not have time to read the entire posted article and its linked supporting pieces. That said, I did pick up that one of the major issues is that a few miners in China control a huge portion of the hash power and have an incentive not to allow growth. Given that computing power is so affordable, is it really not possible for some competing group to decid…

The problem is one of scale. Bitcoin is heavy resource-intensive. So much so, that your Core i7 can't really do anything. These days, not even the latest GPUs can compete. You really need specialized hardware, and a ton of it. And so, money. It's not enough to spin a thousand VMs in AWS and call it a day.

Yes, certainly. I wasn't assuming that a couple of programmers could pull it off. But if a group of people with the funding wanted to take control of the network away from these problematic miners could they?

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#117

Post by nostrademons »

darkmighty wrote: post #106
nostrademons wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think many people overestimate the importance of currency because of the visibility it has. Because it represents the stored wealth that people have, people confuse it with wealth itself. The actual game of business is played out in the provision of goods & services that people want. Currency is the score. You need a means of keeping score in order to play the game, and when one doesn't exist, it will be created. A…

Currency is not just the score, it allows for trades and a certain consensus to be achieved (absolute valuation of goods and services, i.e. total order of preference) that can't be achieved through simple peer to peer trading based on personal preference. Not to mention the inconvenience/logistical inefficiency of having to have a good that interests the seller of your desire, or finding a trading chain. I guess you…

That's the function of scorekeeping in a game. Notice that games with no victory conditions or victory condition that are only apparent toward the end of the game (like Tic-tac-toe, or Chess, or Go) tend to lack trading mechanics. Instead, optimal strategy in them tends to mimic warfare, where you outflank your opponent and force them into a losing position. Games where there's a running score (like Poker or other betting games, or Bohnanza [1], or Chinatown [2], or even Settlers of Catan) tend to evolve very trading-directed, market-oriented strategies whenever the game rules allow for trades.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohnanza

[2] http://www.amazon.com/Z-Man-Games-71220-Chinatown-Board/dp/B...

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#118

Post by snowwrestler »

ErikAugust wrote: post #85
snowwrestler wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem however is that a nation's currency is arguably the primary source of it's sovereignty. The reverse is also true--any significant currency creates sovereignty by elevating the power of those with the greatest influence over that currency. In the case of Bitcoin, the "core" developers, in addition to the highest-volume miners, have been elevated to the sovereign position. Rather than a distributed statel…

Well, right. One may frame this whole "failed versus not failed" as a power struggle between two camps: a. Those who own a large stake in the original BitCoin - such as the developers, miners, venture capitalists, the Winklevoss Twins, etc. and b. Those who don't own a large stake in BitCoin currently, but wish to own a large stake in the dominant cryptocurrency. Wall Street... When you attack BitCoin on any grounds,…

Another way to look at it is, what was the goal of the Bitcoin experiment?

a. To create a new network for digital financial transactions? This seems to be what Fred Wilson is writing about, and I agree with him that the jury is still out.

b. To create a distributed currency free from government bureaucracy? Bitcoin seems well-separated from the U.S. federal government, but lately it also seems like Bitcoin has organically sprouted its own messy government bureaucracy.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#119

Post by pcmaffey »

blhack wrote: post #112
pcmaffey wrote: post #87

1. I have no idea how to get Bitcoin. A quick search takes me to several exchanges that look like torrent sites for pirating shit. 2. Nor has anyone presented me a compelling reason to get bitcoin (other than the future). Off the top of my head, if a company offered me an account that would take care of my online transactions in a secure way using Bitcoin, I might be interested. Maybe I'd put a few hundred in it each…

http://www.coinbase.com/

Thanks, looks good.

Next question for my adoption is: I want to shop anywhere online. Do they have a browser extension that can (1) handle payment processing anywhere and (2) convert my bitcoin to cash for vendors that don't accept bitcoin.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#120

Post by vram22 »

nickbauman wrote: post #79
snowwrestler wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem however is that a nation's currency is arguably the primary source of it's sovereignty. The reverse is also true--any significant currency creates sovereignty by elevating the power of those with the greatest influence over that currency. In the case of Bitcoin, the "core" developers, in addition to the highest-volume miners, have been elevated to the sovereign position. Rather than a distributed statel…

Exactly this. Humans have complex social structures. Notice, too, how the sorts of animals humans domesticate are animals with a strong social hierarchy. This is key: to control the lot, you must subjugate the leader. Famously, Zebras were never domesticated because they lack this hierarchy.

Interesting, didn't know.

But how about cats?

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