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Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

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Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#81

Post by kbart »

mc32 wrote: post #80
kbart wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I don't see how that's relevant. EFF does no evil (as far as I'm concerned), but let's hypothetically say, if one day we found out that EFF helps some foreign government to repress their people, sure everyone supporting EFF now should feel morally obligated to stop their funding.

Your interpretation is off. I'm asking, what if some of their donations come from people or governments who are misogynists, racists, tax cheats, etc. Should the eff figure out the "dirtiness" of the moneys they receive as the eff is asking Cisco to eval the morality of one of the sources of their income.

I understand where you are aiming, but getting money through (anonymous) donation and actively promoting and selling products that you know (as can be seen on slideshow) will be used persecute people is not the same. To answer your question, if some shady character donates money to EFF without asking anything in return and using it as PR, I don't see anything wrong with that.

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#82

Post by chris_wot »

est wrote: post #51
wmt wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah right. Until 1999 it received wide support from Chinese officials, but then decided it was too big and started a silly propaganda campaign feeding the gullible with lies like you just told at the same time when they started a violent persecution. At least they had learned something from the bloody Tienanmen massacre, and this time instead sending military to murder piles of unarmed civilians carried out the murd…

Quick quiz for you: exactly how many people died on that square you mentioned? If not, where are the killing happened? Which side draw first blood?

Getting your information from Baidu?

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#83

Post by us0r »

Nutmog wrote: post #9

While I do think human rights are a good idea, the focus seems to be carefully selected to as to make "bad" countries look bad and western countries look good. For the US, it's OK to kill people as long as you do it a bit randomly in a war instead of being too targeted, or as long as you do it to foreigners not your own citizens and you try to kill them quickly instead of using deliberate torture. If you do use tortu…

>do it to foreigners not your own citizens

We have droned our own citizens.

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#85

Post by mirimir »

iofj wrote: post #23

The problem there is not the US government. The problem there is religion - a specific religion to be extact. Once we start actually holding islam to the standard of modernity we may make progress here, but as long as we shy away from criticizing and shaming the religion publicly - it will keep doing this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human... Meanwhile Saudi Arabia is the chair of the meeti…

> We need to shame islam and take it kicking and screaming into the 20th century. Half of the quran needs to be declared to be toilet paper and nothing more, and then we can talk.

Wahhabism exists in the present, you know. And who's this "we"? Liberal Americans and/or Europeans? Who has the standing to dictate religious beliefs? Anyway, the problem is the US government. Or at least, changing its policies is the only workable strategy.

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#86

Post by im2w1l »

tim333 wrote: post #70
united893 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Falun Gong is an evil litigious cult created in 1992 as a way to raise money for the founders and cult leaders. They're unscrupulous, including promising terminally ill cancer patients the possibility of healing if they just redirect their remaining wealth toward the cult. They're the Chinese equivalent to Scientology, but even worse. Their teachings are racing, homophobic, sexist and misogynistic. They preached that…

Wikipedia doesn't make them sound so bad - "three central tenets of the belief are Truthfulness (真, Zhēn), Compassion (善, Shàn), and Forbearance" The troubles seem to stem from "April 1999, when over 10,000 Falun Gong practitioners gathered peacefully near the central government compound in Beijing to request legal recognition and freedom from state interference." I guess peaceful demonstrations against the state are…

I would not rely on wikipedia for politically controversial information.

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#87

Post by Tomte »

peterwwillis wrote: post #61
est wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick quiz for you: exactly how many people died on that square you mentioned? If not, where are the killing happened? Which side draw first blood?

You don't know? The estimates for the civilians killed in the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 range from hundreds to thousands - no exact count is available. In terms of "which side drew first blood", you could say the "side" of the student protesters, though there's no evidence of "blood" in their actions (as they had no weapons). The morning of June 3, protesters clashed with unarmed soldiers trying to force them…

est probably means that while we "know" that people were killed on Tiananmen Square, they were actually killed in the streets around the square, not on the square itself.

(Other sources say that there were indeed deaths on the square, but less than five or so, not the main massacre)

But it doesn't really matter where exactly the deaths happened.

Only insofar as it reminds us of the fallibility of the human mind (cf. witnesses in court): many people actually believe they have seen in TV how people were slaughtered on the square, which is demonstrably incorrect.

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#88

Post by coldtea »

kbart wrote: post #63
mc32 wrote: post #25

It's not the people who provide goods who should be prosecuted but the people who carry out the actual bad who must be held to account. On the other hand, China [or any country with baddies, perh including our own] is a sovereign government and beside some economic pressure I don't know there is much more we should be able to do. Unless Cisco violated some commercial embargo or egregiously violated export law, etc.

That's how evil things happen. This phenomena is called diffusion of responsibility[0] and lead to some of the most evil actions in human history. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility

>That's how evil things happen. This phenomena is called diffusion of responsibility[0] and lead to some of the most evil actions in human history.

Another way evil happens, even more prevalent today, is meddling and invasion on sovereign countries.

The good ole "democracy bringing" routine...

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#89

Post by maffydub »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #14
mikerichards wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also OK to kill them in the name of economic progress by allowing cars to drive at speeds which regularly cause death. That's a very bizarre statement, but very telling of why you would defend authoritarian regimes.

It also completely ignores the fact that local and state governments in the US regularly try to reduce speed limits which often leads to higher accident and fatality rates.

I'm not disputing your comment, but can you provide a citation for this? I did a quick google but the only reference I could find was a report (editorial?) in the Wall Street Journal called "Highways are safe at any speed".

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#90

Post by EliRivers »

est wrote: post #51
wmt wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah right. Until 1999 it received wide support from Chinese officials, but then decided it was too big and started a silly propaganda campaign feeding the gullible with lies like you just told at the same time when they started a violent persecution. At least they had learned something from the bloody Tienanmen massacre, and this time instead sending military to murder piles of unarmed civilians carried out the murd…

Quick quiz for you: exactly how many people died on that square you mentioned? If not, where are the killing happened? Which side draw first blood?

Don't forget that it wasn't just on the square. Soldiers fired in the surrounding area as well. so those deaths should be part of the total. Your tone gives the impression that you're either part of the PRC's internet army, or one of the tin-foil hat crowd. Which is it?
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