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Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

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Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#31
post #23

The problem there is not the US government. The problem there is religion - a specific religion to be extact. Once we start actually holding islam to the standard of modernity we may make progress here, but as long as we shy away from criticizing and shaming the religion publicly - it will keep doing this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human... Meanwhile Saudi Arabia is the chair of the meeti…

With rhetoric like that and actions backed by such rhetoric you will make Saudi Arabia into a prime candidate for ISIS takeover after a power vacuum of ridding the region of Islam.

Muslims in general are mercurial. And not all people in the region have the same social attitudes. The whole point is to enable secuarlists while disabling orthodoxy. That's not done through such violent rhetoric.

America has not been following this policy of backing up the secularists and disabling the orthodoxy. Instead, it has used the orthodoxy for its own political/geopolitical games, and as a result empowered them in the whole region. It empowered the Saudis to essentially spew Islamist literature all over the world, at times coordinated with them to do so for instance in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets.

The West has further been giving refuge and a platform to the orthodoxy and basically leaving them alone to concoct plans to overthrow governments as is the case in Iran. Even now there are many Islamists sitting comfortably in America and Britain preaching hatred, religion, and orthodoxy and nothing is done to curtail this.

In fact the West totally does not know how to spread secular, Western values other than to bomb countries and help them achieve Capitalist objectives. Instead of using its covert apparatus to espouse good values, it instead uses it for other purposes to increase its power and its influence often at the cost of humanism and secular values.

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#33
post #18

It seems clear Cisco knew their systems were going to be used against Falun Gong. Leaked Cisco presentation: "Cisco Confidential 57 © 2002, Cisco Systems The Golden Shield Project: Public Network Information Security Monitor System • Stop the network-related crimes • Guarantee the security and services of public network • Combat “Falun Gong” evil religion and other hostiles [Note: Statement of Government goals from s…

> • Combat “Falun Gong” evil religion and other hostiles

"Evil religion", wow. I wouldn't have thought a disbelief in moral relativism could make a government official sound so much like a third grader. I feel sorry for the millions of civilians whose lives are negatively affected by this Li buffoon.

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#34
post #23

The problem there is not the US government. The problem there is religion - a specific religion to be extact. Once we start actually holding islam to the standard of modernity we may make progress here, but as long as we shy away from criticizing and shaming the religion publicly - it will keep doing this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human... Meanwhile Saudi Arabia is the chair of the meeti…

Islam in south-east asia seems a lot friendlier that islam in Saudi Arabia. Hell, islam in Saudi's neighboring states seems a lot friendlier, too. It's not just islam that is the cause of Saudi's human rights abuses.

I'm a strong atheist and generally agree with your sentiment, but Saudi's transgressions are not purely religion-based, otherwise we'd see them as strongly in other islamic nations.

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#35
post #25

It's not the people who provide goods who should be prosecuted but the people who carry out the actual bad who must be held to account. On the other hand, China [or any country with baddies, perh including our own] is a sovereign government and beside some economic pressure I don't know there is much more we should be able to do. Unless Cisco violated some commercial embargo or egregiously violated export law, etc.

When engaging with a prospective customer, why should corporations not make a moral judgement about how their goods and services will be used?

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#36
post #25

It's not the people who provide goods who should be prosecuted but the people who carry out the actual bad who must be held to account. On the other hand, China [or any country with baddies, perh including our own] is a sovereign government and beside some economic pressure I don't know there is much more we should be able to do. Unless Cisco violated some commercial embargo or egregiously violated export law, etc.

When engaging with a prospective customer, why should corporations not make a moral judgement about how their goods and services will be used?

If one is not careful, that idea leads to backwater businesses bringing back racial segregation, etc. Rather, I think human rights should be vigorously protected and clearly defined to avoid such slippery slopes.

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#37
post #24
post #23

The problem there is not the US government. The problem there is religion - a specific religion to be extact. Once we start actually holding islam to the standard of modernity we may make progress here, but as long as we shy away from criticizing and shaming the religion publicly - it will keep doing this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human... Meanwhile Saudi Arabia is the chair of the meeti…

Are all Christians to blame for e.g. Uganda's kill the gays law the same way you seem to believe all Muslims are for Saudi Arabia?

That's not what the commenter said. Don't confuse opposition to bad ideas with hatred of people who hold similar ideas.

In some cases it is the idea that shapes the people, and those ideas must be contested.

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#38
post #18

It seems clear Cisco knew their systems were going to be used against Falun Gong. Leaked Cisco presentation: "Cisco Confidential 57 © 2002, Cisco Systems The Golden Shield Project: Public Network Information Security Monitor System • Stop the network-related crimes • Guarantee the security and services of public network • Combat “Falun Gong” evil religion and other hostiles [Note: Statement of Government goals from s…

I didn't know a lot about Falun Gong, and did some research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...

The fact that there is even a Wikipedia article with this title is horrifying.

>Falun Gong practitioners in Changchun intercepted eight cable television networks in Jilin Province, and for nearly an hour, televised a program titled "Self-Immolation or a Staged Act?". All six of the Falun Gong practitioners involved were captured over the next few months. Two were killed immediately, while the other four were all dead by 2010 as a result of injuries sustained while imprisoned.

Falun Gong is a peaceful semi-religion. They've never committed violent acts (as far as I can tell), nor have they even tried to subvert China's government. Why in the world is China torturing and killing them? It seems like they're doing it merely out of fear they could maybe one day become a force that would stand against the government. This is very Stalin-esque persecution and paranoia.

Re: Cisco Must Be Held Accountable for Aiding China’s Human Rights Abuses

#40
post #34
post #23

The problem there is not the US government. The problem there is religion - a specific religion to be extact. Once we start actually holding islam to the standard of modernity we may make progress here, but as long as we shy away from criticizing and shaming the religion publicly - it will keep doing this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human... Meanwhile Saudi Arabia is the chair of the meeti…

Islam in south-east asia seems a lot friendlier that islam in Saudi Arabia. Hell, islam in Saudi's neighboring states seems a lot friendlier, too. It's not just islam that is the cause of Saudi's human rights abuses. I'm a strong atheist and generally agree with your sentiment, but Saudi's transgressions are not purely religion-based, otherwise we'd see them as strongly in other islamic nations.

We do see the criminalization of blasphemy or apostasy in many of those countries, for example, so we still have a lot of gains to be made for human rights against harmful ideologies.
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