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Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

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Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#141

Post by gabbo »

It's crazy and upsetting to watch Canada squander the talent its great engineering schools produce, especially given the low cost.

I left Toronto 8 years ago for the US but have close ties to home and keep regular tabs on the labour market. Even at 1:1 CAD:USD, before factoring in increased cost of living in Toronto (vs. where I am, which is not SF), I'm making close to double what I'd hope to fetch back home. If I really bust my ass and kill it where I am, the disparity is only going to grow.

Once you account for other factors like the increased cost of everything and the general rarity of high-paying tech jobs, returning to Toronto feels like too much of a risk: even if I were to strike relative "gold" and make $120k-140k+ CAD as a senior engineer (a far cry from what I get how), what happens when I move on to something else? A close, highly-talented friend of mine has one of those jobs but feels trapped and doesn't even know where else he could go.

I love that the Toronto startup scene is growing and maturing and I have friends who are really working to, but I fear what's going to happen when funding in the US begins to contract. SF, NYC, and Seattle all have profitable "anchor" employers which will continue to bid for talent even when startup funding won't sustain high tech salaries. Toronto has small branch offices of American companies and some banks (I'm skeptical about the latter). Is there much else?

As far as I can tell there just isn't as much good work. I want to go home some day, but as someone who was fortunate enough to land a good tech job in the US: returning is a massive step down in pay for: fewer choices of work, a more fleeting labour market, a less ambitious environment, an expensive city with overpriced real estate, and a public transit/commute crisis which might not get materially better before I retire. I really do love the place though.

tl;dr I'm an exceptionally fortunate Canadian spoiled by great career prospects in a major American tech hub and find it hard to justify returning home :(

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#142

Post by klipt »

hackerboos wrote: post #81
lewisl9029 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a recent University of Waterloo grad, this has been my experience as well. I tried interviewing in Toronto/Vancouver for a while but have since given up in the Canadian job market. Not a single company I interviewed with was willing to even come close to US salaries. Everyone I know from school who's any good at all has already left for SF/Seattle/NYC and I'll probably be joining them soon. I'm not sure how these…

It's worse in London. I seen a rant on Medium [1] about the lack of affordable talent in London and I could only think of some of the low ball offers I received which would leave me worse off than staying in the North West. I actually get paid more here in Toronto than I could hope to get in London. My only option for the US is H1B but I'm willing to stick around for a while and I'll consider my options when I'm Cana…

H1-B isn't exactly the only option. For example if you get a job with the Canadian branch of a multinational US company, after a year you can transfer to their US branch with an L1 visa.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#143

Post by a-priori »

stumac wrote: post #85
a-priori wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just putting this out there that I personally make >$120k as a developer in Ottawa, and I doubt I'm all that rare seeing as there's people at my company with a more senior job title than I have. I don't think Shopify being in town has anything to do with that, just that the ceiling is higher than you may think.

you're not rare, but I don't think you're common. I make <$55k as a dev in Ottawa and it doesn't feel surprising.

I have no idea really, I only have my own experience to go by. But it sounds like you're really being underpaid. That's very low for a developer unless you're still in school or something. I know that I made $52k as a co-op student in 2009, for example, and I believe that was standard pay at the time.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#144

Post by slededit »

refurb wrote: post #116
alanctgardner3 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love that people who don't work in tech can still afford to live in Toronto. I don't think we're doing as well as we could to combat income inequality, but I'm glad we aren't throwing billions of dollars at overinflated startups. Hell, the biggest recent Canadian startup success story is Shopify, which actually sells real products and has revenue. Not just "slap some ads on it and we'll turn a profit".

I love that people who don't work in tech can still afford to live in Toronto. Isn't the average cost of a home nearing $1M in the GTA core? From what i've read, Toronto isn't that far behind SV when it comes to real estate price inflation.

Rents don't fully reflect current property values. Landlords that didn't buy before the current mania are banking on property value growth to get their return on investment.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#145

Post by dmix »

guiomie wrote: post #140
dmix wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved to Montreal from Toronto because of the great urban environment which I found (and still believe to be) superior to Toronto. The rents were cheap and salaries were lower, which made me believe running a startup there would be much easier. From the outside I wondered why everyone from Toronto wasn't moving there to build companies. But after a year living there I left - 100% due to the hostility to strictly En…

I've never worked in Montreal, I'm from Northern Quebec, but I got to do university in Ontario and worked ever since in Ottawa. I got a job offer for a job in Toronto, and I really like the people and how being French-Canadian didn't seem like a barrier at all. Finally I declined for various reasons. I always thought Quebec's problem were with the it's socialist approach and how taxed Quebecers are, thus professional…

It's the small things. Imagine having to apologize in every single store that you don't speak french well, even though you start the conversation speaking english or weak french.

Or feeling the hostility of older Quebecers who think I'm just another anglophile who didn't spend the time to learn their language. I heard many people casually complain about the American kids who came to the universities and never tried to speak french.

Before arriving I heard lots of rumours about how Quebec people aren't friendly and I was quick to ignore this as a stereotype. But going to many tech events I found it difficult to network. The image that has stuck in my mind of these occasions is finding many small tightnit groups of people packed together at bars or venues, who seemed to have known each other for years, and seemingly disinterested in the people around them.

I never experienced that in Toronto or SF.

> I always thought Quebec's problem were with the it's socialist approach and how taxed Quebecers are

Bringing up Quebec in Toronto (which came up often moving there) the first thing people talk about is the people's attitudes, not socalism. I've actually never heard people talk about their socialist tendencies outside of the news. The only political stereotype that came up was that the tendency of Quebec people to complain about the government not giving them enough money/support, while simultaneously not contributing as much as Ontario economically.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#146

Post by slededit »

gabbo wrote: post #141

It's crazy and upsetting to watch Canada squander the talent its great engineering schools produce, especially given the low cost. I left Toronto 8 years ago for the US but have close ties to home and keep regular tabs on the labour market. Even at 1:1 CAD:USD, before factoring in increased cost of living in Toronto (vs. where I am, which is not SF), I'm making close to double what I'd hope to fetch back home. If I r…

Inequality really works both ways. Canada is a much better place to be if you make under 60k/year. Its also a much better place to be if you fall on the work to live side of the coin. The flip side is you'll get less aggressiveness both at the corporate and employee level and the pay to match.

I think its largely cultural. Theoretically Canada should be more welcoming to entrepreneurship. You don't have to worry about your health insurance when you quit and start your own company - and the safety net limits your fall in the case of failure. The government also heavily subsidizes new startups.

But entrepreneurship is generally looked down upon in a way that isn't true in America. A failed startup in the US is chalked to "at least you tried" whereas in Canada its looked upon as a moral tale of the risks of chasing childish dreams. This goes throughout society - from raising capital to what your in-laws hassle you about over the dinner table.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#147

Post by gabbo »

slededit wrote: post #146
gabbo wrote: post #141

It's crazy and upsetting to watch Canada squander the talent its great engineering schools produce, especially given the low cost. I left Toronto 8 years ago for the US but have close ties to home and keep regular tabs on the labour market. Even at 1:1 CAD:USD, before factoring in increased cost of living in Toronto (vs. where I am, which is not SF), I'm making close to double what I'd hope to fetch back home. If I r…

Inequality really works both ways. Canada is a much better place to be if you make under 60k/year. Its also a much better place to be if you fall on the work to live side of the coin. The flip side is you'll get less aggressiveness both at the corporate and employee level and the pay to match. I think its largely cultural. Theoretically Canada should be more welcoming to entrepreneurship. You don't have to worry abou…

Totally agree. The sad thing is I'm not even entrepreneurial in the "aggressive unicorn chase" sense; I'm just a lucky guy with a rewarding and enjoyable large tech company job with good pay and work/life balance. It feels like getting anywhere near what I have now, just in Canada, would be so much harder.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#148

Post by Almaviva »

beachstartup wrote: post #133
Almaviva wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> look around on the internet. I know the places you're talking about, and I can't stand them because they're dehumanizing and hypocritical. But believe me I've looked, and in my experience a disproportionate number of these men are actually from Toronto! I'm not saying men don't feel like this elsewhere, but it was surprising to me how this city sticks out. http://www.returnofkings.com/58796/15-reasons-why-toronto-i…

sounds like you should move. i'm sure you won't though.

If you've lived in Toronto and other major cities and can relate your personal experience, I'm interested. About your generic self help, less so.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#150

Post by hackerboos »

klipt wrote: post #142
hackerboos wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse in London. I seen a rant on Medium [1] about the lack of affordable talent in London and I could only think of some of the low ball offers I received which would leave me worse off than staying in the North West. I actually get paid more here in Toronto than I could hope to get in London. My only option for the US is H1B but I'm willing to stick around for a while and I'll consider my options when I'm Cana…

H1-B isn't exactly the only option. For example if you get a job with the Canadian branch of a multinational US company, after a year you can transfer to their US branch with an L1 visa.

True. L1 is actually better than TN because it's dual-intent and better than H1B because there's no cap.
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