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Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

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Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#71

Post by mindslight »

andrepd wrote: post #54
wolfgke wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know I jaywalked, and I got caught, so I pay the already predetermined fine. Why wasted tons of resources taking everything to trial and redifing the system with every case? Why punish jaywalking?

That's beside the point here, really.

It certainly shows the proliferation of ridiculous criminal laws.

How many of these "99.9 percent" of "just" cases are simply just persecuting someone for an invented victimless "crime"?

If the questionable legality of walking across an empty street doesn't perfectly illustrate how our minds have been warped by a draconian sense of "justice", I don't know what could.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#72

Post by wolfgke »

raldi wrote: post #68
quanticle wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just to play devil's advocate here (and I understand this goes against prevailing opinion), but he did break the law. He absolutely did break the law. I, personally don't dispute that, nor do I think that that's a controversial fact here. The trouble that I and many other commenters here have with what happened to Aaron Swartz is the gross disproportionality of the punishment he was facing. For downloading academic…

> For downloading academic papers, he was facing [...] You left out the part where he snuck into a server closet and tampered with the network equipment. Among other things, that's burglary.

> Among other things, that's burglary.

And locking away scientific papers of research that was funded with public money behind paywalls is burglary of the public.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#73

Post by quanticle »

raldi wrote: post #68
quanticle wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just to play devil's advocate here (and I understand this goes against prevailing opinion), but he did break the law. He absolutely did break the law. I, personally don't dispute that, nor do I think that that's a controversial fact here. The trouble that I and many other commenters here have with what happened to Aaron Swartz is the gross disproportionality of the punishment he was facing. For downloading academic…

> For downloading academic papers, he was facing [...] You left out the part where he snuck into a server closet and tampered with the network equipment. Among other things, that's burglary.

Which just proves my point. The penalty he would have faced for burglary would have been less, by far, than the penalty he faced for violating the CFAA.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#74

Post by yarou »

gnaritas wrote: post #65
wolfgke wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was not murdered. Murder means an unlawful killing; prosecutors did not unlawfully kill Aaron, he did that himself. Carmen Ortiz as the prosecutor was the law at that moment, so it is a circular reasoning and sophistry to say that killing Aaron Swartz was not unlawful. > He didn't have to commit suicide, that was his choice And it was Carmen Ortiz' choice to bring Aaron into a position where he didn't see any ot…

> Carmen Ortiz as the prosecutor was the law at that moment No, she was a prosecutor attempting to apply the law; rather than have his day in court, Aaron chose suicide. It is the judge and jury that are the law and Aaron never saw them. > so it is a circular reasoning and sophistry to say that killing Aaron Swartz was not unlawful It is nothing of the sort. > And it was Carmen Ortiz' choice to bring Aaron into a pos…

It's not unreasonable to choose death over living under an unjust and corrupt regime, whose laws you don't agree with. In fact, there are many people in the world today who make that very choice.

I'm assuming you've never had a helpless moment where you truly felt powerless. In that moment, even death seems preferable to a life where you are helpless.

Personally, I would rush head on into the barrels of guns pointed at me, rather than live with my head bowed and my spirit broken.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#75

Post by gnaritas »

yarou wrote: post #74
gnaritas wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Carmen Ortiz as the prosecutor was the law at that moment No, she was a prosecutor attempting to apply the law; rather than have his day in court, Aaron chose suicide. It is the judge and jury that are the law and Aaron never saw them. > so it is a circular reasoning and sophistry to say that killing Aaron Swartz was not unlawful It is nothing of the sort. > And it was Carmen Ortiz' choice to bring Aaron into a pos…

It's not unreasonable to choose death over living under an unjust and corrupt regime, whose laws you don't agree with. In fact, there are many people in the world today who make that very choice. I'm assuming you've never had a helpless moment where you truly felt powerless. In that moment, even death seems preferable to a life where you are helpless. Personally, I would rush head on into the barrels of guns pointed…

> It's not unreasonable to choose death over living under an unjust and corrupt regime, whose laws you don't agree with.

Who said it was? I said it wasn't murder. Aaron killed himself, that is an indisputable fact of the case. No one agrees with all the laws of the country, anywhere on the planet; that's life everywhere. He didn't choose to die over the corrupt regime; he chose to die to avoid facing jail, he was just fine living in the corrupt regime before jail looked like the final option.

> Personally, I would rush head on into the barrels of guns pointed at me, rather than live with my head bowed and my spirit broken.

Brave words, but they're just words; people react differently when actually faced with such circumstances.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#76

Post by igravious »

gnaritas wrote: post #38
bitmapbrother wrote: post #31

I'm still disgusted by the behavior of the MIT officials in all of this. Whenever I see or hear 'MIT' the first thing that comes to mind is: "that's the school that was responsible for the death of Aaron".

And why would that come to mind when none of it is true? Firstly, Aaron is responsible for his own death, it was suicide. Secondly, it's the zealous prosecutor you should be mad at, MIT is not to blame here; Aaron broke many laws and they were well within their rights to have him arrested. Good intentions aside, what Aaron did was illegal and he deserved to be arrested for it; what he didn't deserve was more than pro…

Aaron was responsible for for his own death, in the same way that every human being is responsible for their own life once they reach adult-hood. To say that he was responsible is to say nothing at all really, because most of us in a forum such as this have that mental model of person-hood.

Studies of suicide show that during harsh times such as during a crisis or a drought suicides go up. Of course those extra suicides are responsible for their actions but we recognise that external factors _can_ cause some people to go on downward spirals resulting in their deaths.

If the justice system had been more merciful and compassionate Aaron would undoubtedly still be alive. Yes, he was responsible for taking his own life. Yes, the pressure he was put under was indirectly a cause in him taking his own life. The laws are unjust and the penalties are too harsh.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#78

Post by wolfgke »

gnaritas wrote: post #75
yarou wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not unreasonable to choose death over living under an unjust and corrupt regime, whose laws you don't agree with. In fact, there are many people in the world today who make that very choice. I'm assuming you've never had a helpless moment where you truly felt powerless. In that moment, even death seems preferable to a life where you are helpless. Personally, I would rush head on into the barrels of guns pointed…

> It's not unreasonable to choose death over living under an unjust and corrupt regime, whose laws you don't agree with. Who said it was? I said it wasn't murder. Aaron killed himself, that is an indisputable fact of the case. No one agrees with all the laws of the country, anywhere on the planet; that's life everywhere. He didn't choose to die over the corrupt regime; he chose to die to avoid facing jail, he was jus…

> Brave words, but they're just words; people react differently when actually faced with such circumstances.

And that is why as a prosecutor you should better be careful than sorry (though I don't know whether Carmen Ortiz is the latter).

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#79

Post by gnaritas »

igravious wrote: post #76
gnaritas wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why would that come to mind when none of it is true? Firstly, Aaron is responsible for his own death, it was suicide. Secondly, it's the zealous prosecutor you should be mad at, MIT is not to blame here; Aaron broke many laws and they were well within their rights to have him arrested. Good intentions aside, what Aaron did was illegal and he deserved to be arrested for it; what he didn't deserve was more than pro…

Aaron was responsible for for his own death, in the same way that every human being is responsible for their own life once they reach adult-hood. To say that he was responsible is to say nothing at all really, because most of us in a forum such as this have that mental model of person-hood. Studies of suicide show that during harsh times such as during a crisis or a drought suicides go up. Of course those extra suici…

See, now that's a perfectly reasonable statement I fully agree with. You're not blaming MIT for his death nor calling his suicide a murder.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#80

Post by nickpsecurity »

an_account wrote: post #46
quanticle wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge difference between things going smoothly and things being just . Something like 95% of cases in the US don't even go to trial. They're ended in a plea bargain, which allows the prosecutor to serve as both judge and jury. I do not think that is a sign of a healthy justice system, nor a sign of a justice system that actually pursues justice .

Alternatively, it is the sign of a very healthy justice system. When cases are cut and dry there's no reason to go to trial. A basic example: I know I jaywalked, and I got caught, so I pay the already predetermined fine. Why wasted tons of resources taking everything to trial and redifing the system with every case?

That's not true if prosecutors can lie about strength of case with immunity plus have a ton of leverage. Great explanation by this former prosecutor and judge:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014/11/20/why-innocent-peop...

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