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Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

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Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#51

Post by an_account »

wolfgke wrote: post #40
mahranch wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It amazes me what our justice system can do to people and not be held responsible. Just to play devil's advocate here (and I understand this goes against prevailing opinion), but he did break the law. That much isn't in dispute, they had a video of him entering the MIT network closet. And he didn't commit misdemeanors, he committed a half dozen felonies (actually more, but the prosecution dropped a few of them). Th…

> Just to play devil's advocate here (and I understand this goes against prevailing opinion), but he did break the law. Aaron himself said "There is no justice in following unjust laws." > https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamj... I even go further and say that you can't be good and lawful at the same time - at least not in any currently existing system of laws.

Is the right course of action to break "unjust" laws, or to just fight to change them? This is an opinion, but I argue that every person has a different definition of what is "just", and if everyone followed their definition of "just", than our legal system would break down.

Society functions on a set of laws, but those laws can change for the better.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#52

Post by quanticle »

an_account wrote: post #46
quanticle wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge difference between things going smoothly and things being just . Something like 95% of cases in the US don't even go to trial. They're ended in a plea bargain, which allows the prosecutor to serve as both judge and jury. I do not think that is a sign of a healthy justice system, nor a sign of a justice system that actually pursues justice .

Alternatively, it is the sign of a very healthy justice system. When cases are cut and dry there's no reason to go to trial. A basic example: I know I jaywalked, and I got caught, so I pay the already predetermined fine. Why wasted tons of resources taking everything to trial and redifing the system with every case?

The core principle of the US system of government (and of the British system that precedes it) is that no single person should have absolute power in a criminal trial. Power should be subject to checks and balances, even if those checks and balances are cursory in 95% of cases.

Put another way, the US criminal justice system is the equivalent of a software development process where the vast majority of changes go in without code review.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#54

Post by andrepd »

wolfgke wrote: post #50
an_account wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, it is the sign of a very healthy justice system. When cases are cut and dry there's no reason to go to trial. A basic example: I know I jaywalked, and I got caught, so I pay the already predetermined fine. Why wasted tons of resources taking everything to trial and redifing the system with every case?

> I know I jaywalked, and I got caught, so I pay the already predetermined fine. Why wasted tons of resources taking everything to trial and redifing the system with every case? Why punish jaywalking?

That's beside the point here, really.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#55

Post by wolfgke »

gnaritas wrote: post #48
wolfgke wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He wouldn't have attempted suicide if he hadn't been confronted with the merciless system of prosecution.

He didn't have to commit suicide, that was his choice , you cannot blame his choice on those prosecuting him. People get prosecuted every day and serve time and don't go and kill themselves. He was not murdered. Murder means an unlawful killing; prosecutors did not unlawfully kill Aaron, he did that himself.

> He was not murdered. Murder means an unlawful killing; prosecutors did not unlawfully kill Aaron, he did that himself.

Carmen Ortiz as the prosecutor was the law at that moment, so it is a circular reasoning and sophistry to say that killing Aaron Swartz was not unlawful.

> He didn't have to commit suicide, that was his choice

And it was Carmen Ortiz' choice to bring Aaron into a position where he didn't see any other escape than suicide.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#56

Post by foota »

an_account wrote: post #46
quanticle wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge difference between things going smoothly and things being just . Something like 95% of cases in the US don't even go to trial. They're ended in a plea bargain, which allows the prosecutor to serve as both judge and jury. I do not think that is a sign of a healthy justice system, nor a sign of a justice system that actually pursues justice .

Alternatively, it is the sign of a very healthy justice system. When cases are cut and dry there's no reason to go to trial. A basic example: I know I jaywalked, and I got caught, so I pay the already predetermined fine. Why wasted tons of resources taking everything to trial and redifing the system with every case?

I really don't think we're talking about jaywalking cases here.

(source, 2000: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/dccc.pdf)

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#57

Post by wolfgke »

andrepd wrote: post #54
wolfgke wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know I jaywalked, and I got caught, so I pay the already predetermined fine. Why wasted tons of resources taking everything to trial and redifing the system with every case? Why punish jaywalking?

That's beside the point here, really.

I don't think so (and it shows that you really didn't understand my argument).

You claimed:

> Why wasted tons of resources taking everything to trial

With my sentence I wanted to point out that perhaps the problem is perhaps that part of the problem is that there are too many criminal offences - thus the judicial system is much too expense, which leads to the problem that most cases have to be regulated in the dubious way of plea bargaining.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#58

Post by seiji »

wolfgke wrote: post #40
mahranch wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It amazes me what our justice system can do to people and not be held responsible. Just to play devil's advocate here (and I understand this goes against prevailing opinion), but he did break the law. That much isn't in dispute, they had a video of him entering the MIT network closet. And he didn't commit misdemeanors, he committed a half dozen felonies (actually more, but the prosecution dropped a few of them). Th…

> Just to play devil's advocate here (and I understand this goes against prevailing opinion), but he did break the law. Aaron himself said "There is no justice in following unjust laws." > https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamj... I even go further and say that you can't be good and lawful at the same time - at least not in any currently existing system of laws.

you can't be good and lawful at the same time

It's so early in the evening to have reached Peak HN already.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#59

Post by puppetmaster3 »

bitmapbrother wrote: post #31

I'm still disgusted by the behavior of the MIT officials in all of this. Whenever I see or hear 'MIT' the first thing that comes to mind is: "that's the school that was responsible for the death of Aaron".

Also I do as well. Any mention of MIT, first I think of Aaron.

Re: Aaron Swartz died three years ago today

#60

Post by cobaltblue »

wolfgke wrote: post #40
mahranch wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It amazes me what our justice system can do to people and not be held responsible. Just to play devil's advocate here (and I understand this goes against prevailing opinion), but he did break the law. That much isn't in dispute, they had a video of him entering the MIT network closet. And he didn't commit misdemeanors, he committed a half dozen felonies (actually more, but the prosecution dropped a few of them). Th…

> Just to play devil's advocate here (and I understand this goes against prevailing opinion), but he did break the law. Aaron himself said "There is no justice in following unjust laws." > https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamj... I even go further and say that you can't be good and lawful at the same time - at least not in any currently existing system of laws.

Unfortunately he picked the wrong unjust laws to break, the wrong targets to go after. The problem with being a true believer... http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2013/01/noam-ch...
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