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When Are You Really an Adult?

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Re: When Are You Really an Adult?

#181

Post by johnchristopher »

thatcat wrote: post #171
x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children growing up also don't like people condescending and treating them as the children they are. If a child puts on the appearance of being an adult, should we treat them as such and give them the rights and responsibilities of being an adult?

treating a child like an adult can lead to them acting like an adult and accepting responsibilities they otherwise would not, where as condescension re-enforces their role as a child

I believe we should not. Children are not yet able emotionally to handle `adults' problems and situations all of a sudden. It doesn't leave them any space to experience good and bad things and grow up. Getting that label at an early age could prevent them of reaping the benefits of growing up and developing as a child, in the emotional and physical space that is usually reserved to children. That's what should make them into `adults'.

It's like the debate about praising children for their innate abilities (let's say: intelligence) and behaviour (let's say: trying many times to solve a math problem even if they fail at first): the first approach put them in a fixed mindset while the second ease them into the idea that they can try, blunder and try again and that's what makes them getting better (not an innate ability).

Re: When Are You Really an Adult?

#182

Post by [deleted] »

javajosh wrote: post #44

There is a mode of adulthood that is dangerous and worth mentioning, which is a kind of hard-hearted acceptance that the world isn't fair, life is full of suffering, and there's nothing you (or anyone) can do about except suck it up and keep going. There's a kind of grim determination to continue despite not wanting to. Maybe it's because you have people depending on you, or maybe it's because you're just very stubbo…

[deleted]

Re: When Are You Really an Adult?

#183

Post by Robin_Message »

javajosh wrote: post #44

There is a mode of adulthood that is dangerous and worth mentioning, which is a kind of hard-hearted acceptance that the world isn't fair, life is full of suffering, and there's nothing you (or anyone) can do about except suck it up and keep going. There's a kind of grim determination to continue despite not wanting to. Maybe it's because you have people depending on you, or maybe it's because you're just very stubbo…

This makes me think of the Tribal Leadership book and talk (https://www.ted.com/talks/david_logan_on_tribal_leadership/t... ).

Their model has 5 stages. Stage 1 is 'life sucks' and stage 2 is 'my life sucks'. What you describe fits between those stages. Their ideas about stages beyond that are pretty interesting.

Re: When Are You Really an Adult?

#184

Post by meric »

teekert wrote: post #175
meric wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you described is called being responsible for yourself and others, and responsible feels good, because it is good, by good meaning having utility, as determined by natural processes. I don't like your previous comment because it can mislead people into doing something irresponsible even when it doesn't feel good because they think they should only be responsible for themselves and not others.

So you are saying, all human beings somehow are responsible for the happiness (we didn't define what they are responsible for but I'll assume happiness/well being) of all others? Where do you draw the line? Why are you not giving more of your salary to poor people? Who determines what is enough giving? Can I hold you responsible? Or, who can? Or do you perhaps I agree that you may feel responsible but you can't be he…

You're right, human beings tend to be naturally responsible because they tend to feel that way. It is important to nurture these feelings, and take responsibility with those who you feel you ought to, rather than ignoring it. It is important people are aware that these feelings are good and should be nurtured, as opposed to feelings you get when doing something that's harmful to yourself and others (e.g. drugs & cheating on your wife/husband), and those feelings should be ignored.

A certain statement like "You certainly are not responsible for other people.", is misleading and unhelpful because it suggests people who are tempted by relationships outside the home should go ahead and pursue them, even if it means feeling bad for being irresponsible towards your children and family.

Your point is you are being responsible because it makes you feel good, taking these feelings for granted. Yes, nature gives them to us to begin with, but they must also be nurtured. Between the good dog and the evil wolf in all our hearts, the one that wins is the one we feed.

Re: When Are You Really an Adult?

#185

Post by rprospero »

amalcon wrote: post #60
rprospero wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that the realization that you are the only person who is responsible for you is only half-way there. I'd say that full adulthood realization is that you are the only person responsible for you, but you are still responsible for other people . The reason I say that is I've know individuals who have taken the first mantra to mean that they hold no responsibilities to other people. That it is, in a reductio ad a…

Maybe this is better stated as: you are still responsible for your effects on other people . You don't need to feel responsibility for every little thing everyone else does, but to the extent that you hurt someone else, it's on you to make it right.

Darn. You're right. It is better stated that way.

Re: When Are You Really an Adult?

#186

Post by sdegutis »

beccasanchez wrote: post #163
sdegutis wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you were downvoted for using a straw man fallacy. I wasn't saying adulthood was defined in terms of beards. Just that I don't feel like an adult because of my lack of beard. Man, I'd even settle for a great mustache. But nope, nothing.

... and I was making the observation that if a beard is the sign of an adult, then women can't be adults. Are you sure you feel like an adult, or are you talking about feeling like a man? This isn't a meaningless distinction, and it also doesn't need to be offensive. Alas, it seems if I want to have public philosophical discussions I should go back to 300 BC.

I dunno.

Re: When Are You Really an Adult?

#187

Post by teekert »

meric wrote: post #184
teekert wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are saying, all human beings somehow are responsible for the happiness (we didn't define what they are responsible for but I'll assume happiness/well being) of all others? Where do you draw the line? Why are you not giving more of your salary to poor people? Who determines what is enough giving? Can I hold you responsible? Or, who can? Or do you perhaps I agree that you may feel responsible but you can't be he…

You're right, human beings tend to be naturally responsible because they tend to feel that way. It is important to nurture these feelings, and take responsibility with those who you feel you ought to, rather than ignoring it. It is important people are aware that these feelings are good and should be nurtured, as opposed to feelings you get when doing something that's harmful to yourself and others (e.g. drugs & chea…

"A certain statement like "You certainly are not responsible for other people.", is misleading and unhelpful because it suggests people who are tempted by relationships outside the home should go ahead and pursue them, even if it means feeling bad for being irresponsible towards your children and family."

For me that falls under taking responsibility for my own life. If I were to be constantly tempted it would be a signal something is wrong. I'd discuss this with my partner. Perhaps we should break up. The alternative is staying with him/her out of pity. Pity is not love, staying with someone out of pity is worse than leaving them imo. If my partner was constantly tempted but staying with me out of pity it would be the ultimate insult. I want my partner to be with me out of pure self-interest, because I'm the best choice, her favorite human being, her ultimate partner, the best she can get. I don't want to be a compromise.

I think that there is even a case to be made that leaving while you have children is better for them than keeping them in an unhappy marriage. You are certainly not giving a good show of what love is all about.

I do agree about the feeding, you certainly have the power to feed and deprive certain feelings.

Re: When Are You Really an Adult?

#188

Post by jubjubbird »

branchless wrote: post #142
marknutter wrote: post #8

I hold that there is one very specific moment that signifies the transition from childhood into adulthood that is universal for all people – the moment you first realize that when it comes down to it, you are the only person who is responsible for you . That eventually, the charity of others will run out and all that will be left is your own reflection staring back at you, at which point you will need to decide wheth…

For me it was when I had to put the presents in my first child's stocking. Not only was I responsible for him, I had also to supply the magic and there was nobody doing this for me. That's when the buck really stops, forget the bills and all the rest.

Same here. I remember very distinctly the first Christmas spent with my own child and feeling like an adult, compared to spending Christmas with my parents.

Re: When Are You Really an Adult?

#189

Post by mercer »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #113
x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we shouldn't consider such people adults, then. Often times developmentally disabled children reach "adulthood" but are still considered incompetent and require guardianship.

Yay, thanks :). I'll be recruiting competent guardians for myself then. CVs welcome. Mail is in the profile. ;). Seriously though. Often the part of living with depression is keeping up appearances, so that you don't get labeled by friends and relatives as a childish adult. For some reason, many people tend to switch to a condescending attitude then, and this is very much not helping the depressed person.

This is the reason why I've always gravitated towards friends who were aware of their own weaknesses, open about them, and open to leaning on others for support when they needed it.

In practice these were often people who suffered from some kind of disability, mental or physical, or were in some kind of minority (gay, ethnic minority, etc.). They had to swallow their pride, they had to stop pretending that they had all their shit together, and they had to learn to give others a break as well.

These friends showed empathy and understanding, while my 'normal' friends, at best, could only produce sympathy (which is still good, but not the same). And in some cases the response was pity, or worse, and thankfully very rarely, condescension.

One of the nice things I've been learning as I'm getting older and as I'm becoming less attached to 'status' and ego, is that I'm realizing how true it is that there's strength in weakness. When I get to know new people, I often force myself to be open about my particular weakness or struggles (without complaint generally), and almost every time this provides an opening for them to share theirs. Regularly, at the end of a long conversation, they'll tell me that they feel unburdened and that they've never or rarely told anyone about their struggles.

And for me, that makes it easier to deal with what I'm dealing with, because it feels like it's not pointless.

(btw, I noticed your username popping up quite often in relation to a comment that is, at the very least, thoughtful and interesting. I just wanted to mention that :))

Re: When Are You Really an Adult?

#190

Post by mercer »

nommm-nommm wrote: post #146
marknutter wrote: post #8

I hold that there is one very specific moment that signifies the transition from childhood into adulthood that is universal for all people – the moment you first realize that when it comes down to it, you are the only person who is responsible for you . That eventually, the charity of others will run out and all that will be left is your own reflection staring back at you, at which point you will need to decide wheth…

By your definition my grandmother stayed a child until she died at 84. I guess that's accurate enough but... meh... almost nobody who is in their 80s who had 10 kids wouldn't be considered an adult. She did absolutely nothing for herself at all. Ever. For her entire life.

Hmm... I've known a few people who are as you describe, and in conversations about these people they'd often be described as 'basically still a child'. So I think in this case the definition stands.
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